Quitting full-time PhD to OPT to H1B

[johnmac]

I am an F-1 visa holder. I got my MS from University X in Dec 2009 and am currently enrolled in the same university for a PhD for in a STEM field ever since that. The required coursework is completed and only the thesis work is remaining.

The completion date for my PhD is said to be May 2014 on the I-20. But it will certainly take longer than that. I am thinking of pausing my PhD and taking up full time employment, then completing PhD part-time. I have already used some CPT time before (Jan-Aug'11).

I plan to apply for OPT starting May 15th 2013. I am interviewing for full-time positions that will sponsor an H1B.

What kind of OPT will I get ? Am I eligible for CPT ? If I get an internship position should I try to take a CPT and then try to transition into H1B, instead of an OPT ?

Also will I be eligible for the 17 month STEM extension if I do not get H1B before May 2014 (and the thesis work is not completed) ?

Thanks in advance for your inputs. Please let me know if you need more info.

JM

[t75]

People pursuing PhD typically would do course work part time and research full time. Faculty advisors want full time research assistants not someone who may show up in the evenings; the ones I know would cease to be your dissertation advisor with your plan. Kiss your PhD goodby. CPT time affects OPT availability. You get no OPT until you complete your degree. If you want to work, get an H1B.

[JoeF]

First, forget CPT. Cut that acronym from your vocabulary.

CPT is dead, due to abuse by fake universities like TVU, ****, *******, ***.

Second, for OPT, you have to be enrolled and in good standing. You can't just "pause" the PhD and get OPT.

[JoeF]

I should have said, for pre-completion OPT you have to be enrooled. For post-completion OPT, you obviously have to have graduated.

[Desi Dude]

I am an F-1 visa holder. I got my MS from University X in Dec 2009 and am currently enrolled in the same university for a PhD for in a STEM field ever since that. The required coursework is completed and only the thesis work is remaining.

The completion date for my PhD is said to be May 2014 on the I-20. But it will certainly take longer than that. I am thinking of pausing my PhD and taking up full time employment, then completing PhD part-time. I have already used some CPT time before (Jan-Aug'11).

I plan to apply for OPT starting May 15th 2013. I am interviewing for full-time positions that will sponsor an H1B.

What kind of OPT will I get ? Am I eligible for CPT ? If I get an internship position should I try to take a CPT and then try to transition into H1B, instead of an OPT ?

Also will I be eligible for the 17 month STEM extension if I do not get H1B before May 2014 (and the thesis work is not completed) ?

Thanks in advance for your inputs. Please let me know if you need more info.

JM

Thats a gross misuse of the system. I am sure the university paid for all your courses and even gave you stipend.

They should make a rule that if you dont complete your PhD then you have to pay back the money the university spent on you.

[JoeF]

Thats a gross misuse of the system. I am sure the university paid for all your courses and even gave you stipend.

They should make a rule that if you dont complete your PhD then you have to pay back the money the university spent on you.

Well, I take it you don't know how little universities pay to RAs and TAs. That's less than minimum wage.

And if you write scientific papers, as is required for a PhD, the university name is right up there, so their reputation increases. The university also owns the research you do. For example, the University of California owns Berkeley Unix, developed by Bill Joy et al at UC Berkeley. UC also owns a lot of biomedical inventions, coming out of the research done at UC San Diego. Revenue from licensing technology developed at the UC campuses makes up a significant amount of the UC budget. And that's true for other top research universities as well.

[t75]

JoeF,

I am troubled by the number of supposed students who use an F-1 to enter the US to look for a job and have no intention of getting a degree. They are denying others that opportunity; there are many students in the US and internationally that really would use that program slot.

I wish there were the requirement that if one enters on a student visa that they not be allowed to obtain another status in the US until the end of the duration of the degree (original anticipated graduation date) in which they were enrolled. Actually, some immigration proposals would address this since they would require a degree in order to apply for a GC.

[rahul412]

I wish there were the requirement that if one enters on a student visa that they not be allowed to obtain another status in the US until the end of the duration of the degree (original anticipated graduation date) in which they were enrolled. Actually, some immigration proposals would address this since they would require a degree in order to apply for a GC.

I agree with you.

Finding a job without finishing the degree is nothing but abuse of F1 program.

[omshiv]

JoeF,

I am troubled by the number of supposed students who use an F-1 to enter the US to look for a job and have no intention of getting a degree. They are denying others that opportunity; there are many students in the US and internationally that really would use that program slot.

I wish there were the requirement that if one enters on a student visa that they not be allowed to obtain another status in the US until the end of the duration of the degree (original anticipated graduation date) in which they were enrolled. Actually, some immigration proposals would address this since they would require a degree in order to apply for a GC.

I agree with you. Misuse of the system should be avoided. Hopefully someone from USCIS notices this and takes action like the way they stopped the abuse of H1/L1/B1.

[rahul412]

I agree with you. Misuse of the system should be avoided. Hopefully someone from USCIS notices this and takes action like the way they stopped the abuse of H1/L1/B1.

H1/L1/B1 and also GC.

[maverick41]

I agree with issues around the misuse of the F1 visa but getting back to the OP's case.

Here is someone who has finished his maters and the required PhD coursework and is looking for a job. There is absolutely nothing wrong with pausing his Phd and pursuing a job. I'm not from the IT or engineering world and I'm tired of people in this forum who only look at everyone from that lens (because looks like that's where all the fraudulent H1 sponsors exist). In my medical research field there are numerous cases of people who are offered jobs in the private sector or non-profit world and later come back at a later date to defend their thesis.

Please also don't feel sorry for the university or the PI/Researcher because they anyway have to show that will have x number of candidates working under them to get the grant.

[t75]

Actually, the research and dissertation of a PhD program is the one that needs full time attention. Coursework can more easily be done part time. USCs who pursue a part time PhD would generally wait until their heavy research and writing phase to leave work and go to school full time.

[t75]

Many of the researchers would be better off with fewer good students than the mishmosh that the have now. Some are so bad that they setback the research progress.

[Desi Dude]

JoeF,

I am troubled by the number of supposed students who use an F-1 to enter the US to look for a job and have no intention of getting a degree. They are denying others that opportunity; there are many students in the US and internationally that really would use that program slot.

I wish there were the requirement that if one enters on a student visa that they not be allowed to obtain another status in the US until the end of the duration of the degree (original anticipated graduation date) in which they were enrolled. Actually, some immigration proposals would address this since they would require a degree in order to apply for a GC.

I guess now everyone agrees with me when I pointed out the misuse initially !! Let me add one more thing, if you are not happy with the abuse of PhD you have no idea what will happen when they start stapling GC to STEM students. There will be millions of people enrolling as students just to get GC. Everything has unintended consequences !!!

[maverick41]

Actually, the research and dissertation of a PhD program is the one that needs full time attention. Coursework can more easily be done part time. USCs who pursue a part time PhD would generally wait until their heavy research and writing phase to leave work and go to school full time.

I'm not aware of reputable part-time PhD programs (or at least in the sciences arena). You are expected to be in the lab working under a hood almost 7 days a week and probably would also end up spending nights in the lab. Please understand that getting into a good PhD program is not a walk in the park, a lot of times it's only in the 2nd year you get accepted into the PhD program after the university has vetted you for a year and then you have to hope and pray that a professor/PI picks you to be a part of his project/lab.

I'm not trying to be condescending here but when I hear of a freshly minted doctoral student in some of the non-science fields publishing umpteen number of papers I'm always surprised. Conducting animal and human research is a totally different ball game.

[JoeF]

I'm not aware of reputable part-time PhD programs (or at least in the sciences arena). You are expected to be in the lab working under a hood almost 7 days a week and probably would also end up spending nights in the lab. Please understand that getting into a good PhD program is not a walk in the park, a lot of times it's only in the 2nd year you get accepted into the PhD program after the university has vetted you for a year and then you have to hope and pray that a professor/PI picks you to be a part of his project/lab.

I'm not trying to be condescending here but when I hear of a freshly minted doctoral student in some of the non-science fields publishing umpteen number of papers I'm always surprised. Conducting animal and human research is a totally different ball game.

It works differently in different fields.

In some fields, everything is done in the lab.

In some fields, there is lots of being in the field, often at ungodly times or in swamps, etc.

In some fields, there may be classwork at the beginning, e.g., up to the qualifiers.

After that, PhD students are of course required to "eat, drink and sleep" their research. And that may require publishing "umpteen numbers of papers." Abstract stuff is also research. Einstein didn't go to a lab to develop his Theory of Relativity... Similarly, the concept of the Internet, the concept of the World-Wide-Web didn't require time in the lab, but "just" deep thought.

I am surprised that you are surprised about how research in fields other than your own works.

[maverick41]

So we all agree that doctoral programs in general are not easy. My issue was when people were making a hue and cry when the OP wanted to move on into a career right before the completion of his PhD program and agreed to come back at a later date to finish his thesis.

The other reason why I brought up the number of papers is because I have also noticed in the EB 1 forum people making comments of how someone does not have enough papers or has not presented enough number of times. All I wanted to put across is that people should be evaluated on a case by case basis and not lumped into one bucket.

Yes, research has done a lot for mankind--- from life saving drugs to the world wide web.

[F1struggle]

I guess now everyone agrees with me when I pointed out the misuse initially !! Let me add one more thing, if you are not happy with the abuse of PhD you have no idea what will happen when they start stapling GC to STEM students. There will be millions of people enrolling as students just to get GC. Everything has unintended consequences !!!

I thought this proposed rule has some conditions like the student should start a job post-graduation plan to continue to work which obviously means that the student has completed the degree. I don't think law makers are totally ignorant, although I do agree that any immigration system always has smal loops and holes.

[Desi Dude]

I thought this proposed rule has some conditions like the student should start a job post-graduation plan to continue to work which obviously means that the student has completed the degree. I don't think law makers are totally ignorant, although I do agree that any immigration system always has smal loops and holes.

Yeah they will get as soon as they complete their degree (even if its in 1yr). Which basically means 99% people who enroll will have a guaranteed GC in hand in less than 2yrs. Which will result in influx of millions students from any and every part of the world, since that will be the easiest and sure shot way to get a GC.

[catx]

Let me add one more thing, if you are not happy with the abuse of PhD you have no idea what will happen when they start stapling GC to STEM students. There will be millions of people enrolling as students just to get GC. Everything has unintended consequences !!!

Yeah they will get as soon as they complete their degree (even if its in 1yr). Which basically means 99% people who enroll will have a guaranteed GC in hand in less than 2yrs. Which will result in influx of millions students from any and every part of the world, since that will be the easiest and sure shot way to get a GC.

I basically agree with your first posted comment, that there could be a flood of people with U.S. Masters degrees currently with approved I-140 petitions in the EB2 category India changeability area (as it is the one most oversubscribed and backlogged) filing for a so-called STEM visa if it comes to pass (possibly causing an oversubscription and backlog for that visa).

However, I do not think that a STEM visa will "result in [the] influx of millions [of] students ..." as there are a number of constraints. Most notably, there is a finite number of foreign graduate students universities can admit. The 55,000 per year number that has been cited for STEM visas is based on a well known number of Masters and Ph.D. graduates each year. Any notable upswing in that number would be an immediate flag of possible questionable practices, such as an increase of students graduating from questionable schools. Also, keep in mind that public universities, and even most reputable private universities, cannot notably increase the number of foreign graduate students at the expense of U.S. students. While most universities like foreign graduate students, especially when they pay full out-of-state tuition, they cannot favor them over U.S. students whom they serve.

[Desi Dude]

I basically agree with your first posted comment, that there could be a flood of people with U.S. Masters degrees currently with approved I-140 petitions in the EB2 category India changeability area (as it is the one most oversubscribed and backlogged) filing for a so-called STEM visa if it comes to pass (possibly causing an oversubscription and backlog for that visa).

However, I do not think that a STEM visa will "result in [the] influx of millions [of] students ..." as there are a number of constraints. Most notably, there is a finite number of foreign graduate students universities can admit. The 55,000 per year number that has been cited for STEM visas is based on a well known number of Masters and Ph.D. graduates each year. Any notable upswing in that number would be an immediate flag of possible questionable practices, such as an increase of students graduating from questionable schools. Also, keep in mind that public universities, and even most reputable private universities, cannot notably increase the number of foreign graduate students at the expense of U.S. students. While most universities like foreign graduate students, especially when they pay full out-of-state tuition, they cannot favor them over U.S. students whom they serve.

We need to foresee a little bit to understand. As soon as the law is passed number of private universities will double. Its all about demand and supply. If supply of students is in millions, Universities will emerge out of nowhere.

For eg. 15yrs back there were hardly any universities in India. But as soon as IT demand grew, look at it now, you will see universities in every nook and corner. Everyone is an MBA there including bored housewives.

And the 55K limit and other restrictions, they will all change. There is a huge lobby.

[JoeF]

We need to foresee a little bit to understand. As soon as the law is passed number of private universities will double. Its all about demand and supply. If supply of students is in millions, Universities will emerge out of nowhere.

That can be easily remedied, similarly to the H1 masters quota. If the university has to be an accredited public or accredited non-profit private university, it is unlikely that new universities would just "emerge." Heck, the for-profit universities like UoP are already under scrutiny.

[catx]

I 100% agree that we need to see what the exact language of any proposed STEM visa immigration legislation, should it materialize, before making assessments and conclusions.

That being said, as speculation, I have read that some of the STEM visa requirements under consideration are for degrees from a USCIS list of recognized research universities, and of course all applicable universities would have to be accredited in order to grant a Masters or Ph.D. degree. There would be a delay in recognizing degrees from "new private universities" as it takes time to apply for and receive accreditation, and if applicable, a research designation.

[Desi Dude]

As I said you have to go deeper to understand. The universities (even accredited ones) will start taking in more foreign students and less local students coz they pay higher tuition fees. As soon as the law is passed, things will start adjusting themselves for maximum profit. You will even see more transfers. So someone from Fiji might join some university like NOVA and then transfer to UVA after one year and get GC. It's gonna be a mess.

10 years back, who would have imagined foreign students going to unknown universities like TVU. How did all these universities originate suddenly? JoeF says these univ will be closed, but its a slow process, they are growing and the Feds only close one or two every year. And even when they shut them down, the students can apply to other universities, no problem.

Mark my words, everything I said will happen.

[JoeF]

As I said you have to go deeper to understand. The universities (even accredited ones) will start taking in more foreign students and less local students coz they pay higher tuition fees.

Not quite likely, at least not for public universities. Public universities have a legal mandate to take local students. In fact, at least in CA, based on the SAT scores, people may have a right to be admitted to a public university.

10 years back, who would have imagined foreign students going to unknown universities like TVU. How did all these universities originate suddenly?

They showed up because Congress, after 9/11, created the deeply flawed SEVIS. Remember, the 9/11 hijackers had student visas, but didn't attend school. TVU and the other frauds were able to exploit the SEVIS flaws.

Yet another data point showing that piecemeal legislation is bad.