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ottawa_rocks

EVC = Suicide !

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Everyone doesn't prefer being a FTP, there are folks that prefer being consultants, I really don't feel there is anything wrong being a consultant as long as law permits, which it does.

Sure. Consulting per se is fine.

What is not fine for somebody on H1 is working for a body shop, due to the lack of employer-employee relationship. The bodyshops give consulting a bad name.

I really don't understand why are we wasting time in useless arguments, I feel the scope of the discussions in this forums should be to help each other out by sharing valuable inputs based on past successful experiences and not by criticizing different models (EVC or EVVC or EC) or each others situations.

Well, the employer-employee relationship memo basically killed the EV...C models. These models never made economic sense, anyway, they were always just about exploiting loopholes.

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Coming to topic, One thing that is puzzling to most of us is that "Why USCIS is approving the petitions in the first place?". Would be glad to know your insights on this.

Well, they increasingly don't approve these cases. Ever since the employer-employee relationship memo, it has become harder to get approval for these models.

There are of course petitions that were approved before, and when the people now try to get extensions, or get visa stamps, they get denied.

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JoeF:

I meant to say, companies will have to keep generating work for full timers by bidding for new projects or by creating new products if they r product based company. They do not have the luxury of firing the full timers when they do not have any more projects or when the economy gets bad. It will damage company's reputation and their stock value if they fire them.

Sure, every company has to sell something to make a profit. Product companies create new products. Consulting companies bid on projects.

Foe each, if they don't make profits and don't have work for their employees, they may lay off people. No difference.

Don't think consulting companies are "safer" because they can bid on other projects. On the contrary. The profit margins in the consulting business are so thin that consulting companies can't keep people "on bench" for long. That's why the shady consulting companies resorted to not paying their H1 employees on bench, which of course is illegal.

Product companies tend to have enough profits to get through temporary slumps in the market. And a decent marketing campaign can increase sales dramatically, something that is completely impossible for consulting companies.

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If you are a full time employee in some american company and you are already in US (H4 to H1), with NO consulting word associated with you whatsoever, what kind of documents should we get from company to fulfill the needs of: EER (Employer employee relationship) ? will Employment Verification lette works ?

If you are working for a product company, the employer-employee relationship stuff won't even come up. Such a company would have sales material, product brochures, etc.

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lets keep all those fraud desi consultancy aside and please let me know...

If you are a full time employee in some american company and you are already in US (H4 to H1), with NO consulting word associated with you whatsoever, what kind of documents should we get from company to fulfill the needs of: EER (Employer employee relationship) ? will Employment Verification lette works ?

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Capri06: I do not agree with you at all.

Example: i was a "SLAVE" just like you guys out here in EVC MODEL of a DESI employer owned DESI consultancy.

Yes, the reason i said SLAVE is because "REALITY is that YOU GUYS ARE SLAVES" who are literally "OWNED" by those DESI EMPLOYERS and treated like GARBAGE.

EXAMPLE: how many of you ever got your gc started on time. You have to be a LOYAL SLAVE for a MINIMUM of 5 years and bend down to their wishes, cry for every DIME, $ to be increased, play cheap and pathetic tax saving per-diem fraud games, beg for your own money and then ENJOY the SO CALLED LIFE..huh

wake up....this THREAD is about WAKING U INDIANS UP who are continuing to be some other DESI's SLAVE just because you want things easy and then start CRYING AS HE STARTS EXPLOITING YOU (THE same guy who you thought of as a GOD as he threw bread in front of you).

NOBODY is saying, do FTE jobs and do not do CONSULTANCY., do consultancy the right way, not by being a PUPPET OR a slave

BOYCOTT DESI BAZAR ! DESI EMPLOYERS and live your american dream the right way or continue to cry about 221g , USCIS Site visits, audits, INS scams and what not....!!!

You must have had a bad experience with your desi employer, don't just give a blanket statement saying all the things you had bad experience with. Tons of my friends and myself got GC started when we wanted, without any delay. You always have the option to change an employer if you are not satisfied with the way he is delaying your GC. At no point you are a 'slave' or a 'puppet'. Don't write incorrect things hear just because you got p*ssed off by your employer.

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You must have had a bad experience with your desi employer, don't just give a blanket statement saying all the things you had bad experience with. Tons of my friends and myself got GC started when we wanted, without any delay. You always have the option to change an employer if you are not satisfied with the way he is delaying your GC. At no point you are a 'slave' or a 'puppet'. Don't write incorrect things hear just because you got p*ssed off by your employer.

@northwest.bobby It is good that you have such a fascinating experience with the Desi consultants. But I can make a blanked statement that these Desi Consultants are thugs. They have absolutely ruined the name of consultancy business. I know few of my friends who are working with these people and they are totally unhappy. They want to switch job but are stuck because of their GC filings. They tell me about their low pay, how they search for a new project themselves but has to pay 20 percentage (80-20) of their income with Desi consultants just because they hold my friends H1-B, how they have to pay from their own pocket for GC filing, how they have pay for their own movers when they move from one city to another and I can go on and on. Many Indians accept these hardship because they still get a chance to live in US and make some dollars. Also, many stay with Desi consultants since they are just waiting for their EAD.

I had said these before and I will say this again: The fraudulent nature of the Desi Consultants in collaboration with the Desi employees is now totally exposed. The problem is that even the Full Time Employee are getting stuck in India precisely because of the cautious approach of the Visa Officer who want to tackle these frauds which you will agree is the right thing to do.

So If someone gets the Visa after long administrative processing, congratulations to them - I too was stuck. If some one is not so lucky I would suggest them to change their employer for a full time employment and go for visa stamping once again. Desi consultants are fraud, don't be a pawn in their game.

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@ashman2012 ,

To my knowledge, the I-129 is the key document for any model to explain the EER. The LCA, paystubs, offer letters, client-vendor contract agreements (for EC/EVC) etc will serve as supporting documents. Generally, your attorney who compiles the document for filing the petition on behalf of your company should have knowledge about how to present the EER in the I-129. Hope it helps.

Thanks :)

If my H1b will be approved this month, I will definitely look my I-129 documents (after I will receive it from my lawyer).

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Well, they increasingly don't approve these cases. Ever since the employer-employee relationship memo, it has become harder to get approval for these models.

There are of course petitions that were approved before, and when the people now try to get extensions, or get visa stamps, they get denied.

Great point.

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Hence proved, EVC = dead and for people who are saying that it's just because i had bad experience: the answer to that is: times have changed, you can no longer steal, run and enjoy a fake show.

To all the X GC or EAD holders from sham-shady world: you were lucky birds but generations to come will suffer. Thank You :)

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@northwest.bobby It is good that you have such a fascinating experience with the Desi consultants. But I can make a blanked statement that these Desi Consultants are thugs. They have absolutely ruined the name of consultancy business. I know few of my friends who are working with these people and they are totally unhappy. They want to switch job but are stuck because of their GC filings. They tell me about their low pay, how they search for a new project themselves but has to pay 20 percentage (80-20) of their income with Desi consultants just because they hold my friends H1-B, how they have to pay from their own pocket for GC filing, how they have pay for their own movers when they move from one city to another and I can go on and on. Many Indians accept these hardship because they still get a chance to live in US and make some dollars. Also, many stay with Desi consultants since they are just waiting for their EAD.

I had said these before and I will say this again: The fraudulent nature of the Desi Consultants in collaboration with the Desi employees is now totally exposed. The problem is that even the Full Time Employee are getting stuck in India precisely because of the cautious approach of the Visa Officer who want to tackle these frauds which you will agree is the right thing to do.

So If someone gets the Visa after long administrative processing, congratulations to them - I too was stuck. If some one is not so lucky I would suggest them to change their employer for a full time employment and go for visa stamping once again. Desi consultants are fraud, don't be a pawn in their game.

@rajvis16, are you complaninig about giving 20% of your pay to the company? This is insane! What do you expect them to do? Just run your payroll and give 100% of your billing rate??? They are not doing charity for people. They have their own business. Who pays for the rent of the office that filed your H1B? Who pays the power bills there? Who supports the very reason you are in US with all the documentation? Who deals with attorneys to have your H1B filed? How are the HR people in that company going to be paid? And now complaining about 20%???

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@rajvis16, are you complaninig about giving 20% of your pay to the company? This is insane! What do you expect them to do? Just run your payroll and give 100% of your billing rate??? They are not doing charity for people. They have their own business. Who pays for the rent of the office that filed your H1B? Who pays the power bills there? Who supports the very reason you are in US with all the documentation? Who deals with attorneys to have your H1B filed? How are the HR people in that company going to be paid? And now complaining about 20%???

Of the so many things that I said you conveniently picked up the 20% thingy?

I think you need to broaden your thinking and try to understand what people are saying here about the Desi Consultancy as a whole and not try to argue by selecting some points and elaborating it.

But I need to answer you too, isn't? I know Desi Consultants who don't spend a single dime while transferring H1-B. They charge 20% just to hold your visa. You still think that is fair?

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@rajvis16, are you complaninig about giving 20% of your pay to the company? This is insane! What do you expect them to do? Just run your payroll and give 100% of your billing rate??? They are not doing charity for people. They have their own business. Who pays for the rent of the office that filed your H1B? Who pays the power bills there? Who supports the very reason you are in US with all the documentation? Who deals with attorneys to have your H1B filed? How are the HR people in that company going to be paid? And now complaining about 20%???

in addition to this: if someone thinks that 20% is high or that consultant don't deserve it, just leave the consultancy :P

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Of the so many things that I said you conveniently picked up the 20% thingy?

I think you need to broaden your thinking and try to understand what people are saying here about the Desi Consultancy as a whole and not try to argue by selecting some points and elaborating it.

But I need to answer you too, isn't? I know Desi Consultants who don't spend a single dime while transferring H1-B. They charge 20% just to hold your visa. You still think that is fair?

whatever image they have, who is going to them ? no one is forcing us to join them.

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I feel this topic is meaningless as EVC guys will continue to advocate EVC and FTPs will continue to trash it. There is no point wasting time criticizing different models and arguing which one is the best, we all know how it all works. I think we just need to help each other out from past experiences irrespective of what model one belongs to.

Some of the posts here remind me of early schools days i.e. "mine is the best, no mine"

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Ottawa rocks- i have been observing u since day one all you talk is abt negative and hopless points....if your stars are working fine on you just stay calm n be happy...your posts are meaning less and waste of time..this is an immigration forum. you make some baseless points...this is not the right place to PROVE if something is dead or not...and even if its dead thats fine..it doesnt need your approval...you dont have to inform that to rest of the world..by presenting facts n bashing it...people who are normal wont do that...if you are just having fun by creating controversial topics and fake news..SERIOUSLY..this is not the place..period!!!

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With the recent whistleblower allegations against a major Indian consulting company people should expect even more scrutiny.

That alleged abuse may result in a complete denial of all EC and EV...C cases.

Better find a real employer. Stay away from all consultants.

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This topic made me smile, laugh, and cry. As I learn more about the so-called consulting practices of the “Desi consultancies”, I see why these “body shops” (correct term) are a problem for everyone.

First, the H-1B visa is, and has always been, intended and designed for companies to hire employees from outside the U.S. to fulfill specialty professional positions. It is not, and has never been, intended for what are effectively independent consultants ’employed’ from project to project and company to company (under the EV…C model).

Second, paying a 20 (or any) percent kickback (and that is what it is) to your employer (along with other employer expenses) is ludicrous. Do you think professional consultants in companies like Accenture, IBM Global Services, HP Services, etc. pay their employer -- absolutely not!!! This goes to the very heart of the issue. These ‘business’ practices (under the EV…C model) are that of independent consultants – not employees. In the true EC model, the consulting company directly invoices the client for services and separately directly pays the employee a salary.

For perspective, I am on an H-1B visa in EB3-ROW with approved I-140 ('patiently' waiting for an available permanent residency visa). I work for a U.S. specialty engineering software company in professional services, and have been at a client site (major oil & gas company) for an extended engagement. Accordingly, I am in the EC model (no vendor(s) or other middle men in the contracting relationship). While in an EC model, I have an office at my company location, work directly with my company management and colleagues on daily basis, have a computer, cell phone, etc. from my employer, I am paid directly by my employer, receive employee health care benefits, vacation, 401K matching, profit sharing as company stock, and other benefits directly from my employer.

The known abuses and fraud (recently the New York law firm, and as just alleged LTI). H-1B (and L-1) visas are discretionary at the will of the U.S. government, not just a procedure to go through or right. Companies and individuals who exploit H-1B (and L-1) visas, and arguably more egregiously the permanent residency process, endanger the legitimate use and negatively impact the chance for real solutions to the employment immigration backlog.

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Lot of people have quesions as to why USCIS is still approving the cases of so called Faudulent Consulting Companies(Desi or Non Desi) and then rejecting it when employees go back to consulate for stamping . Here is what I think is happening.

Cost Factor,

  • USCIS and US Economy(including Lawyer , Admins etc) Makes Close to $5000 on each H1b Application(Fresh or Renewal).
  • Ideally H1b's are low crime, frud & health risk compared to other legal & illegal immigrants so It costs US absolutely nothing to have these guys here.

Immigration factor

  • By rejecting a case of a individual who is already present in US gives person 2 choices, leave the country or stay here illegally. Lets say 90% people leave country and 10 % dont, we are still talking a significant number.
  • It costs US approx $35000/year/ illegal immigrant plus it is politically harmful. It also increases chances for more crime and fraud(eg credit, healthcare fraud etc..)

221G factor

  • So considering above points, if USCIS approves a case the person will work for maximum 6 years , play taxes ~20,000/yr , Plus h1b fees X 2, Plus they wont have illegal immigrant problem. 100000 legal immigrants are better than 1 illegal.
  • After 6 years a person will have apply for GC( fraud Wont get Past i-140 stage) or to travel to India where he/she will have to get Visa Stamped. USCIS has an oppurtunity to reject the case outright(This explains why some people are rejected without asking any questions) and not worry about him becoming ilegal immigrant or Delay the H1b using 221G if you are not sure about company's behaviour. USCIS knows A good company will retain their employee no matter what(Believe it or not it takes on average 6 months to hire a new good Employee) but a bad company will terminate empoyee on first sign of problem. That way USCIS could retain good employees and unwanted employees gets dropped on itself. This is a win win situation for USCIS.
  • So by Approving Case at USCIS and rejecting it at consulate gives them oppurtunity to make money,avoid illegal immigration and still keep the fraudlent person out from getting long term legal immigration instead of rejecting at USCIs and losing all the money and a chance for a person to stay here illegaly. Trus me illegal immigration is long cut to becoming legal in USA, as no politician has guts to deport all illegal immigrants out.

This is just my opinion and I might be completely wrong. This should not be considered a fact but looking at the behaviour I can only come down to this conclusion..

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Lot of people have quesions as to why USCIS is still approving the cases of so called Faudulent Consulting Companies(Desi or Non Desi) and then rejecting it when employees go back to consulate for stamping . Here is what I think is happening.

Cost Factor,

  • USCIS and US Economy(including Lawyer , Admins etc) Makes Close to $5000 on each H1b Application(Fresh or Renewal).

That is BS. USCIS does not take fees or lawyer costs etc. into account for their decisions.

This kind of conspiracy stuff should really be laid to rest.

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With the recent whistleblower allegations against a major Indian consulting company people should expect even more scrutiny.

That alleged abuse may result in a complete denial of all EC and EV...C cases.

Better find a real employer. Stay away from all consultants.

How is EC not a genuine model. All big US consulting (Cannot mention names) comapnies provide service to big companies in US. If the company you are working for has a genuine contract with the client, how is that not real employment? All EC's cannot be fraud, please dont generalize the model. My company has more than 25000 employees world wide and provides service to major US based companies and companies around the world, you are trying to say since it is EC, they are not genuine? Not all US companies sponsor and hire H1B's. So why not reject any application which is not a direct employment, rather than approving it and then rejecting it and then reaffirming it again and then providing visa?

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@All:

Neither EC is bad nor EVC model. Everything depends on your companies reputation and its history. Every case is different.

Lets put an end on this thread now ? If agree, please dont reply anymore (not even to this post). thanks.

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How is EC not a genuine model. All big US consulting (Cannot mention names) comapnies provide service to big companies in US.

If you have heard about these whistleblower allegations of massive H1 abuse at one of the major IT consulting companies, it is very well possible that USCIS (and Congress) could take the view that not allowing H1s for these companies could be a good thing.

If the company you are working for has a genuine contract with the client, how is that not real employment?

A contract with a client has nothing to do with employment.

The employee is not a party of the contract. Please learn about contract law.

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