3012 impact

[arunksub123]

That may be the ultimate goal, but as the bill stands, it would create additional quotas for ROW.

And that's the opposite of the ultimate goal.

It in essence means that people from ROW get screwed over. It is sad that one group of immigrants has no problem screwing over others for their own personal benefit.

JoeF, Please answer a very straight-forward question. Are you OK with removing per-country limits?

If so, why are you NOT OK with this 3 yr transition period? Do you have better solutions to reach the ultimate goal? Do not say to increase visa numbers. Increasing visa numbers with per country limits is still a pathetic idea. Increase in visa numbers should be "after" eliminating any quotas for "like qualified" people.

You are saying so much about discrimination to ROW whereas this bill is helping ur cause by removing the word "ROW" from the EB visa category. Fair or no ?

[JoeF]

Joef - Can you list down the demerits of this bill and why you are upset? I see you mentioning "cutting line in grocery store" and "Selling mother for GC". You are so emotional about this bill. Last time I checked, I dont see line based on neighbourhood, race, country of origin in my grocery store. Is this bill introduces that and makes row to wait longer than other country?

One of the major issues is that the bill creates new quotas for ROW. That's why this "one line" argument that somebody brought up is complete BS.

There are always multiple lines everywhere. That was what I illustrated with the multiple grocery lines.

So, the fact is that the supporters of this bill are willing to screw others for their own advantage. That's where the "selling your own mother" comes in.

All I have seen from the supporters of this bill are lies and unethical behavior. Lies about "one line", and the willingness to screw others.

A much better approach would be to increase the quotas, or take dependents out of the quota numbers. That helps everybody. But no, the supporters of this bill prefer to screw others to get ahead.

[dm_neo]

That may be the ultimate goal, but as the bill stands, it would create additional quotas for ROW.

And that's the opposite of the ultimate goal.

It in essence means that people from ROW get screwed over. It is sad that one group of immigrants has no problem screwing over others for their own personal benefit.

It's sad that you still don't understand that immigration is not a group activity rather an individual one. Never in India it happened that 10,000 Indians formed a group and decided to board a ship to immigrate to America, the kind happened from Europe and to some extent from China. Indians came here to pursue their individual passions, most of them came on their own (applicable to students and EB immigrants). And you lumped them together when they are here for unscrupulous benefits.

[ashishk1]

Joef,

You are one of the senior respected members of the forum and you're answers to questions are generally as good as attorneys. But recently the comments you're passing doesn't seem from a person at your level and reputation. An objective unbaised analysis is expected from you.

If we all really were to modify the law, the ideal scenario would be no quota of any kind. No country ..no yearly quota. And we should join forces for that and not for deameaning each other.

One of the unintended result of the bill (if passed) would be that even Europeans would have to follow the queue and they don't just write their frustrations on the forums but vent it to proper channels that generate change in the law.

[rakeshsharma_2000]

That may be the ultimate goal, but as the bill stands, it would create additional quotas for ROW.

And that's the opposite of the ultimate goal.

It in essence means that people from ROW get screwed over. It is sad that one group of immigrants has no problem screwing over others for their own personal benefit.

Few points:

We agree ultimate goal is no quota. Rest is transition to that goal. Currently we do have a quota. Which one of you think is worse: current or the new one?

It not the case of one group of immigrants having no problems screwing other group (you also mentioned you despise this group in another thread). No immigrant group is writing and passing the bill. We just have opinions that dont count as we cannot vote and congressmen are not inclined to listen to us for this reason. Please direct your despise and unpleasantness towards the authors of the bill, 95% of the house member who approved the bill, majority of the senators who support the bill, and US chamber of commerce and software companies like microsoft who support this bill with their influence with the congress. Also may I also add, the citizens of this country who support this indirectly via their elected representatives (unless they have written/spoken to them against the bill)

[MSR29]

I am kind of surprised when reading messages from the senior members of this forum. I really used to appreciate their effort when answering queries from different people. But lately I see lot of hostility in their messages against EB3 and Indians.

I came to US 10 years ago, did my MS in CSE, got a job with MS as a requirement, worked for years and then started GC process in EB2 category. For me it’s current and already filed for AOS and hoping to get in few months.

Looking at EB3 category backlog, I do feel to support them and hope 3012 bill passes. This benefits folks who have been waiting for many years. Its really unfair that they have to wait many years in line based on nationality quotas. I believe it should be FIFO without quotas. May be some senior members want EB3 folks to wait in line forever?

Also not sure why people are proud to say they are US citizens and know its history. Just so you know people from India have better knowledge of US history than folks from europe claiming to have a higher quality of education.

[JoeF]

ah, now I know why you're upset about the bill. You belong to ROW and you would never like to stand in the same line as others especially indians and chinese.

Huh? I am a naturalized US citizen. This bill doesn't affect me personally.

The only thing I care about is that it is bad to take from Peter to give to Paul. Not hard to understand, for anybody who is human.

[JoeF]

Joef,

You are one of the senior respected members of the forum and you're answers to questions are generally as good as attorneys. But recently the comments you're passing doesn't seem from a person at your level and reputation. An objective unbaised analysis is expected from you.

The unbiased analysis is that this is a bad bill. It screws over some people for the benefit of others. That is just bad.

Of course, it is bad that people from India and China have to endure long waits. But this bill is not the right fix for that. This bill is just wrong, because it screws over others.

Two bads don't make a right.

The right way to fix the problem is to either increase the quotas or, at least, to take dependents out of the quota numbers. Would have a much much bigger effect, and would be much more fair to everybody than this bill.

[JoeF]

Few points:

We agree ultimate goal is no quota. Rest is transition to that goal. Currently we do have a quota. Which one of you think is worse: current or the new one?

It not the case of one group of immigrants having no problems screwing other group (you also mentioned you despise this group in another thread). No immigrant group is writing and passing the bill.

Actually, IV takes pride in having helped push this bill through. That's what I referred to.

IV should have pushed for a bill that benefits everybody. As it stands, IV is representing just a small part of the immigrant community. The I in IV obviously doesn't stand for "Immigrants" anymore. It stands for "Indian". Everybody else gets screwed by this bill.

[Belle]

ah, now I know why you're upset about the bill. You belong to ROW and you would never like to stand in the same line as others especially indians and chinese.

Sure. This is why he chose to come to this forum and help countless Indians and Chinese get their green cards faster.

Stop throwing baseless allegations. It does not help your cause.

[chakrakr]

Sure. This is why he chose to come to this forum and help countless Indians and Chinese get their green cards faster.

Stop throwing baseless allegations. It does not help your cause.

How did he help get Green Card Faster to someone. I can see him sharing his knowledge and opinion like other members of this forum-- sometimes incorrect information (like no EB number is required for family members OR after AOS, one need to get paid current prevailing wage and not what was mentioned in PERM) . But how does that help to get a GC faster ???

[dm_neo]

The unbiased analysis is that this is a bad bill. It screws over some people for the benefit of others. That is just bad.

Of course, it is bad that people from India and China have to endure long waits. But this bill is not the right fix for that. This bill is just wrong, because it screws over others.

Two bads don't make a right.

The right way to fix the problem is to either increase the quotas or, at least, to take dependents out of the quota numbers. Would have a much much bigger effect, and would be much more fair to everybody than this bill.

It's sad that you still don't understand that immigration is not a group activity rather an individual one. Never in India it happened that 10,000 Indians formed a group and decided to board a ship to immigrate to America, the kind happened from Europe and to some extent from China. Indians came here to pursue their individual passions, most of them came on their own (applicable to students and EB immigrants). And you lumped them together when they are here for unscrupulous benefits.

[cap-gap]

Actually, IV takes pride in having helped push this bill through. That's what I referred to.

IV should have pushed for a bill that benefits everybody. As it stands, IV is representing just a small part of the immigrant community. The I in IV obviously doesn't stand for "Immigrants" anymore. It stands for "Indian". Everybody else gets screwed by this bill.

that is an irrational statement...and your OTHER STATEMENTS against the bill too..

This bill is aimed at eliminating the discrimination against indians AND chinese..so there goes your argument about group IV is working for indians only..

I can't even fathom that the per country quota(read skin color quota) has survived for so long..and your claim for this prejudiced practice to be your congenital right does not belong in the USA..may be valid in crumbling eurozone, but not here.

Where was the ROW support, including yours, to tackle unreasonable backlog of indians' & chinese’ PD retrogression?

Even if the bill puts a cap on ROW quota during phase-in , based on the unused numbers that spill to EB2 india, china..it shoould not be a problem for the ROW.

You can't tolerate the cap on ROW for temp periods, but you are are OK with Asians suffering for indefinite periods of time?

EB immigration is directly tied with economics. Tech sector has become one of key elements of capitalist USA and the biggest group (Asians) in this sector are finally getting the long due attention they deserve from the policy makers, whether you like it or not.

[dm_neo]

Sure. This is why he chose to come to this forum and help countless Indians and Chinese get their green cards faster.

Stop throwing baseless allegations. It does not help your cause.

Helping others doesn't mean that you consider them equal to you. Based on some of his replies, I get the feeling that he considers himself superior to Indians and Chinese. I also doubt that this forum in itself would let someone obtain a green card.

[roul_raj123]

Sure. This is why he chose to come to this forum and help countless Indians and Chinese get their green cards faster.

Stop throwing baseless allegations. It does not help your cause.

What do you mean to say about? How can JoeF help Indians and Chinese get their green cards faster? Can you and JoeF please explain? Even if he/she wishes or dreams, he/she cannot help Indians and Chinese get their green cards faster. We need a Bill like HR 3012 as a stepping stone to help us. JoeF and Belle are very good ambassadors for EB3-ROW, but very poor ambassadors for EB3-I(INDIA). They have shut their eyes when EB3-ROW is having a PD of 22DEC05 versus EB3-I (INDIA) is having a PD of 22JUL02.

JoeF is repeatedly saying that “Everybody else gets screwed by this bill”. Where was he/she sleeping when EB3-INDIA was and is screwed whereas EB3-ROW is given the preference? When HR 3012 is on the verge of passing, and getting enacted as a bill, JoeF and Belle are trying to be Messiahs of EB3-ROW.

[Belle]

We need a Bill like HR 3012 as a stepping stone to help us. JoeF and Belle are very good ambassadors for EB3-ROW, but very poor ambassadors for EB3-I(INDIA). They have shut their eyes when EB3-ROW is having a PD of 22DEC05 versus EB3-I (INDIA) is having a PD of 22JUL02.

We are good embassadors for immigrants, period. Both of us are pro-immgrantion in all categories, we don't play favorites like many people here (legal/illegal, FB/EB, India/ROW). We also understand how the laws work. India is not backlogged because of the per-country limit - it is backlogged because 140K is a measely quota that needs to be increased. Anyone who does not understand it and praises 3012 is misplacing thier effort in the best case. The second thing we understand is that we are all in the same boat. Who ever starts throwing other immigrants under the bus is breaking the front. But don't take my word for it - as it is in many a tale, if you throw yours under the bus, you are going to be thrown under the bus next by your new "friends". These "friends" are Republicans who IV is trading with to get this bill through - don't get me worng, they hate all immigrants, Indians probably above all. Watch what happens.

There is my quick lesson in class warfare. We Europeans are a little better at it, thanks to a loooong and bloody history of it ;-)

[murphyd]

Everyone chill. Only time will tell. There is nothing wrong is collective bargaining power. IF ROW did not use their power it is not IC's fault.

[JoeF]

JoeF is repeatedly saying that “Everybody else gets screwed by this bill”. Where was he/she sleeping when EB3-INDIA was and is screwed whereas EB3-ROW is given the preference? When HR 3012 is on the verge of passing, and getting enacted as a bill, JoeF and Belle are trying to be Messiahs of EB3-ROW.

And yes, this bill screws ROW.

The backlog for India/China is a big problem, but this bill is the wrong answer. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Pokymon]

Belle and JoeF,

Do you think 70 years wait time is acceptable? With the current situation, there is no way Congress will raise visa limits or visa recapture.

Will they raise Retirement Age to over 100 because of green card?

[apropos]

Friends, first of all, I'm ROW too. And my green card is only 5-6 months away from current priority date ROW.... (I arrived in USA ion 2002) and in my native country government is opposed to any immigrants from any country.

Now... look how many immigrants are already here from China and India. The purpose of quota is not crewing EB3 people from India and China, but make sure there are still some Americans left. Cheers!

[roul_raj123]

@JoeF: And yes, this bill screws ROW.

And yes, without this Bill, EB3-I is screwed. Naturally as you are from Europe, you are supporting EB3-ROW. I do not blame you.

[Raju2005_10]

EB1 getting preference over EB2 is fair.

EB2 getting preference over EB3 is fair.

EB3 Sweden getting preference over EB3 China is unfair to anyone who has any sense of fairness.

Everyone has right to support or oppose the proposed legislation but atleast be honest dont claim that you oppose the above bill for fairness and equality. This proposal does nothing but level the playing field.

[Belle]

Belle and JoeF,

Do you think 70 years wait time is acceptable? With the current situation, there is no way Congress will raise visa limits or visa recapture.

Based on your math, 2002 was 70 years ago. I don't think you do yourself any favors by posing complete and utter nonsense like that.

[808HIflip]

As I read through Muthy's analyzation, and as almost everyones else, except from those on other chargeability whose dates arent so favorable, this H.R. really favors them if Murthy's analyzation is correct (and I think they are). Those of us whose way ahead, 2006, would either be moved down side by side with them, thats worse and another worse is not to move at all and wait for them to move up. People are complaining that this works and really favors only those chargeability whose dates are not so looking good. When people from before determines that they should put a cap for every country, this is what they mean, and there is really a purpose for that. I think the cap should stay to maintain order and number of people coming in and abuse of visa. For countries who really dont use up their quota's to extinction, they should never be put into the same predicament. I think the solution shd really be to increase the number of visas and/ or by recapturing unused visas from the past. Another one is this, one visa for the whole (immediate family) not per head. If one member who came in already and acquired a green card, as soon as the petition of the other immediate member have been approved, he/she will not wait anymore as one (immediate) member of the family have a green card already. I am very much worried about this new law that is being introduced, because I am in this point already of my long wait is almost finish then this will come in and (might possibly) make a mess out of it. Am sure I am not alone. Any new law introduce, pass and became a law would affect any existing condition or existing law. If this will pass, H.R. 3012, I just hope that people who waited for so long to be in a good position right now shouldnt be affected in a bad way, if there is and would be. And if this will pass, hope that it will really be a benefit to those who has been in waiting for a long time and be an asset to those future H1-B applicants and not be a thorn and an obstacle to others.

[rakeshsharma_2000]

Actually, IV takes pride in having helped push this bill through. That's what I referred to.

IV should have pushed for a bill that benefits everybody. As it stands, IV is representing just a small part of the immigrant community. The I in IV obviously doesn't stand for "Immigrants" anymore. It stands for "Indian". Everybody else gets screwed by this bill.

The only people writing and passing the bill are congressmen. They are making the intelligent decision. IV can only exercise their freedom of speech right. It is the decision of legislative and executive branches to write and approve the bill. Please direct the ire towards them.

India/China category suffered from this quota for many decades (more so because of large number of people suffering) now ROW will get restricted for 3 years only and then there would be no quota. We are moving towards no quota in few years time and this cannot be bad. The status quo with perpetual quota would be bad. The other solutions of comprehensive immigration reform, increase in number of visa or visa recapture are not going to get done in foreseeable future, given the state of economy and political divisions. (DREAM act, which is unfair, seems likely to be passed in few years though)