3012 impact

[cap-gap]

Well, you are. In total, it makes no impact on EB3. The same number of visas will be given. It makes the wait shorter for EB3 India/China, and longer for EB3 ROW.

that's not entirely true...it gives equal chance for two people with same priority date irrespctive of their country of birth...

[dm_neo]

All these threads condeming the bill and calling it a stupidity please stop all the non-sense.

THE PER COUNTRY LIMIT IN EMPLOYMENT BASED IMMIGRATION SHOULD HAVE NEVER EXISTED IN THE FIRST PLACE AND IS AN EXAMPLE OF SOMENONE'S MYOPIC THINKING AND SOMEHOW COPYING IT FROM THE DIVERSITY IMMIGRATION. SO THIS BILL IS CORRECT AND THE EB IMMIGRATION LAW SHOULD HAVE BEEN MODIFIED TO THIS EFFECT 20 YEARS BACK.

[JoeF]

that's not entirely true...it gives equal chance for two people with same priority date irrespctive of their country of birth...

The fact is that it will make the wait much longer for ROW for a minimal increase for India/China.

[JoeF]

@dm_neo:

Is your keyboard broken?

If you have to scream to get your point across, your point is invalid to begin with.

What should have happened 20 years ago is irrelevant. With the same validity, people could say that 20 years ago there should have been an amnesty, or the borders removed, or John Lennon should still be alive, etc. etc. etc.

[arunksub123]

The fact is that it will make the wait much longer for ROW for a minimal increase for India/China.

No. If i understand the bill correctly, they basically will have to wait like everyone else in their category matching their PDs...

[JoeF]

No. If i understand the bill correctly, they basically will have to wait like everyone else in their category matching their PDs...

Which means a much longer wait for ROW and a slightly less wait for India/China. Which was what I said.

[Belle]

No. If i understand the bill correctly, they basically will have to wait like everyone else in their category matching their PDs...

Which is just a different way of saying what JoeF said "The fact is that it will make the wait much longer for ROW for a minimal increase for India/China." That's after three years. Before that, ROW will liekly have to wait longer than India/China because the bill imposes limits on total ROW numbers. Retroactively.

[dm_neo]

@dm_neo:

Is your keyboard broken?

If you have to scream to get your point across, your point is invalid to begin with.

What should have happened 20 years ago is irrelevant. With the same validity, people could say that 20 years ago there should have been an amnesty, or the borders removed, or John Lennon should still be alive, etc. etc. etc.

Now then, my point is not flawed neither is my keyboard broken. Why are you against changing the EB immigration law in this country, when many other laws are modified after they are created as also our constitution is amended based on changing times?

Also there are winners and losers every single day in life, if a few thousand Indians are winning and a few thousand others are losing what is wrong with it?

[Suncrest]

JoeF and others:

I don't know why you keep saying that the changes proposed in 3012 is minimal. That it screws over ROW with minimum movement for China/India (the most retrogressed countries).

It is a level playing field now that everyone has to stand in line and get their turn (the grocery analogy). It is unfair that someone from smaller countries got to get ahead just because there were many people from China/India. So you are saying that if you were standing in a queue in a store, you would be okay if people shorter than 6 feet (just an example) were allowed to get ahead of you even when they came after you.

I understand that their are rules, some fair some unfair. It is a question of perspective. But pray, please tell us your logic as to why a person from a retrogressed country should not feel discriminated, if per the current rules some one from a smaller country is able to get ahead in line, just because he is not from a retrogressed country.

[JoeF]

A more thorough review of the bill than what some people have done here shows this:

"During the phase in, the number of green cards going to any one country under the 15% and 10% reserves noted above may not exceed 25% (except for India and China) of that reserve."

In other words, the bill introduces an additional quota for ROW.

So much for "one line", etc. That "one line" stuff is now clearly shown to be nothing more than a lie.

People from ROW get screwed over by this bill, plain and simple.

[Pokymon]

A more thorough review of the bill than what some people have done here shows this:

"During the phase in, the number of green cards going to any one country under the 15% and 10% reserves noted above may not exceed 25% (except for India and China) of that reserve."

In other words, the bill introduces an additional quota for ROW.

So much for "one line", etc. That "one line" stuff is now clearly shown to be nothing more than a lie.

People from ROW get screwed over by this bill, plain and simple.

What's your point? India and China is already screwed. You don't mind these people waiting for another 70+ years and ROW get GC within 3 years?

You must be from Iceland.

[rakeshsharma_2000]

JoeF, Belle,

Your replies to questions in general are correct and to the point but in this case I fail to understand logic of your arguments. HR 3012 is a bill that is being forwarded though the established democratic process.. It has been supported by 95% of members of house of congress, and according to leading news organizations, it has support of most of the members of senate (in fact senate is tabling an identical version of the bill). This is also supported by software companies, chamber of commerce. Do you guys object to this and question the intelligence of all these people? I know the perfect thing is to increase the number of visas for high skill categories but don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

HR 3012 will make the wait more equal for everybody eventually. Whats wrong with that? First come first served. If a country can have laws (via legislative process) that put country specific limits, the same country can change those laws via the same legislative process. What is wrong here?

Also about rejecting anybody's projections about what would be the estimated priority dates. I agree no body knows the exact numbers and dates (maybe even DOS/USCIS guys) but no one also knows what would happen with stock markets and many other things and it does not stop people from predicting things. So somebody will, based on some empirical data or even guess, project some numbers and dates. You senior guys then correct or disprove those and collectively we can come up with an intelligent guess, which may or may not be right but doing so will certainly be not a crime and there is nothing wrong in it.

The tone of your replies suggested something like "Shut up about dates till they come out in the bulletin"

[rakeshsharma_2000]

The preamble of the HR 3012 bill:

To amend the Immigration and Nationality Act to eliminate the per-country

numerical limitation for employment-based immigrants, to increase the

per-country numerical limitation for family-sponsored immigrants, and

for other purposes

In few years time this is what would happen if the bill is signed into law. Eventually ROW will not have quota. Law would make things equitable (at least in the eyes of representatives of people of this country)

Even if people think the law is not equitable or is screwing some group/country, each country has sovereign right to make any law, even if it defies logic. The India/China country of chargebility was facing quantitative descrimination and and US companies, organizations, associations determined that in current situation it does not help the country and they are trying to change the law. No other argument matters even though we may discuss them (which is fair)

[JoeF]

What's your point?

The point is that your whining about "one line" is just a piece of BS.

It is not and has never been about "one line" for you.

You are misrepresenting things. All your posts about "one line" are now exposed as fake.

You guys screw over others for your own personal advantage.That's despicable.

[dm_neo]

In fact it seems that you don't understand America. Course correction is at the heart of American law and constitution. Women were given voting right tens of years after men as people realized what was wrong. Then there was abolition of slavery. We always acknowledge and correct what was wrong, so if country cap in EB immigration is blatant it's high time we correct it.

@dm_neo:

Is your keyboard broken?

If you have to scream to get your point across, your point is invalid to begin with.

What should have happened 20 years ago is irrelevant. With the same validity, people could say that 20 years ago there should have been an amnesty, or the borders removed, or John Lennon should still be alive, etc. etc. etc.

[dm_neo]

In fact it seems that you don't understand America. Course correction is at the heart of American law and constitution. Women were given voting right tens of years after men as people realized what was wrong. Then there was abolition of slavery. We always acknowledge and correct what was wrong, so if country cap in EB immigration is blatant it's high time we correct it.

@dm_neo:

Is your keyboard broken?

If you have to scream to get your point across, your point is invalid to begin with.

What should have happened 20 years ago is irrelevant. With the same validity, people could say that 20 years ago there should have been an amnesty, or the borders removed, or John Lennon should still be alive, etc. etc. etc.

[JoeF]

In fact it seems that you don't understand America.

LOL

I am a US citizen...

[JoeF]

The preamble of the HR 3012 bill:

To amend the Immigration and Nationality Act to eliminate the per-country

numerical limitation for employment-based immigrants, to increase the

per-country numerical limitation for family-sponsored immigrants, and

for other purposes

Yes, but the actual law text introduces new quotas. Since you read the preamble, you may also want to read the rest of the bill...

[dm_neo]

LOL

I am a US citizen...

LOL, doesn't matter. Many USCs don't, especially if they are naturalized that you seem to be.

[Belle]

Do you guys object to this and question the intelligence of all these people? I know the perfect thing is to increase the number of visas for high skill categories but don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

Let me put it into perspective:

Perfect - Wide-base elimination of quotas for EB immigration

Almost perfect - exemptions from quotas for some categories of immigrants

Good - Increase quotas

Almost good - Exemption of family members

Kind of good - visa number recapturing

Barely Lukewarm - true elimination of per country quotas

Also run - HR 3012 (because it introduces new quotas)

My personal opinion is that bill can only be good if it opens the window for other immigration bill. By itself, it will possibly do more harm than good. It coins small thinking into the process and divides immigrants. It shows that the immigrants are giving up fighting for anything worthy, and started fighting against each other for a bigger piece of the measly pie.

[rakeshsharma_2000]

I did not say that I read just the preamble. Preamble, just like an abstract of a thesis, lays out the target/purpose of the bill. The actual items of law work towards that target.

Please also see qualified lawyers interpretation of the bill (which will be much much better that mine)

http://www.murthy.com/news/n_eliper.html

This also clearly states that ultimate goal is elimination of per country quota.

[JoeF]

I did not say that I read just the preamble. Preamble, just like an abstract of a thesis, lays out the target/purpose of the bill. The actual items of law work towards that target.

Please also see qualified lawyers interpretation of the bill (which will be much much better that mine)

http://www.murthy.co...s/n_eliper.html

This also clearly states that ultimate goal is elimination of per country quota.

That may be the ultimate goal, but as the bill stands, it would create additional quotas for ROW.

And that's the opposite of the ultimate goal.

It in essence means that people from ROW get screwed over. It is sad that one group of immigrants has no problem screwing over others for their own personal benefit.

[JoeF]

LOL, doesn't matter. Many USCs don't, especially if they are naturalized that you seem to be.

Actually, on the contrary. Naturalized US citizens tend to know more about the US, including US history, than born US citizens, because we chose, in our own free will, to take the citizenship of this country. A responsible person educates himself or herself about the country before taking that step.

Just as an responsible person educates himself or herself about things like quotas before deciding to apply for a GC. The quotas and the delays are nothing new. It was pretty obvious to observers 10 years back that the backlogs would get worse, due to the increase of H1 numbers in the late 1990s and the lack of a corresponding increase of GC numbers. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

And to give you a little more perspective, the area now known as California was once under Mexican rule. It got basically occupied by US forces, in what today would be called an invasion, largely because of the gold rush in the Sacramento river (at Sutter's Mill.) Even the Russians had an outpost in Northern California, Fort Ross.

The history about Texas is also very interesting, but I don't want to expand this post too much. You can get a good overview about it on Wikipedia nowadays (I knew most of it well before Wikipedia existed, from my high school education in Europe.)

[weasley]

Joef - Can you list down the demerits of this bill and why you are upset? I see you mentioning "cutting line in grocery store" and "Selling mother for GC". You are so emotional about this bill. Last time I checked, I dont see line based on neighbourhood, race, country of origin in my grocery store. Is this bill introduces that and makes row to wait longer than other country?

[dm_neo]

Actually, on the contrary. Naturalized US citizens tend to know more about the US, including US history, than born US citizens, because we chose, in our own free will, to take the citizenship of this country. A responsible person educates himself or herself about the country before taking that step.

Just as an responsible person educates himself or herself about things like quotas before deciding to apply for a GC. The quotas and the delays are nothing new. It was pretty obvious to observers 10 years back that the backlogs would get worse, due to the increase of H1 numbers in the late 1990s and the lack of a corresponding increase of GC numbers. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

And to give you a little more perspective, the area now known as California was once under Mexican rule. It got basically occupied by US forces, in what today would be called an invasion, largely because of the gold rush in the Sacramento river (at Sutter's Mill.) Even the Russians had an outpost in Northern California, Fort Ross.

The history about Texas is also very interesting, but I don't want to expand this post too much. You can get a good overview about it on Wikipedia nowadays (I knew most of it well before Wikipedia existed, from my high school education in Europe.)

ah, now I know why you're upset about the bill. You belong to ROW and you would never like to stand in the same line as others especially indians and chinese.

I'll not reply any more to this thread and good luck to you. I don't care if 3012 becomes a law or not, but no matter if the bill introduces new quotas in the short run, eliminating country cap in EB immigration is a good long-term solution and future generations will thank us for doing this. You also mentioned that its Indians' fault that so many of them want to migrate to America instead of fixing their country, but you should also know that all them are employed by American companies.