spicy7up Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Hi, Is MS +2 years of experience is equivalent to Bachelor's + 5 years of post bachelor's progressive experience? Do we have to specify that Bachelor's + 5 years of post bachelor's degree progressive experience will be accepted as an alternative to MS +2 years of experience. Al Link to comment
omshiv Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 "Do we have to specify" - what do you mean? Also its MS + 3 yrs. Link to comment
JoeF Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Hi, Is MS +2 years of experience is equivalent to Bachelor's + 5 years of post bachelor's progressive experience? Do we have to specify that Bachelor's + 5 years of post bachelor's degree progressive experience will be accepted as an alternative to MS +2 years of experience. Al Bacheler + 5 years progressive experience equals MS. MS+2 would be equivalent to BS+7. Link to comment
ateetshah Posted August 14, 2013 Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 Bacheler + 5 years progressive experience equals MS. MS+2 would be equivalent to BS+7. Also it can be BS + 5 or MS + 2. That is usually how most GC applications are processed with PERM. Link to comment
JoeF Posted August 14, 2013 Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 Also it can be BS + 5 or MS + 2. That is usually how most GC applications are processed with PERM. No, it can not. That would imply MS equals BS+3. BS+5 or MS, or: BS+7 or MS+2 Link to comment
ateetshah Posted August 16, 2013 Report Share Posted August 16, 2013 No, it can not. That would imply MS equals BS+3. BS+5 or MS, or: BS+7 or MS+2 There is no official DOL or USCIS guidance in this matter as a matter of fact. You can list Alternate Experience and Education required in PERM as anything. You can put BS + X or MS + X and vica versa. So please don't make up something that is not. Link to comment
JoeF Posted August 17, 2013 Report Share Posted August 17, 2013 There is no official DOL or USCIS guidance in this matter as a matter of fact. You can list Alternate Experience and Education required in PERM as anything. You can put BS + X or MS + X and vica versa. So please don't make up something that is not. Hmm, the rule is that BS + 5 years progressive experience can be used instead of MS. That means what it says. If an employer equals MS with BS+2 or BS+3, then only the BS+2 or BS+3 would count, and not the MS, so it would be in EB3. And adding some y to it doesn't change that. This is not made up, but derived from actual posts by people... You are welcome to file a lawsuit against USCIS with your money. Don't suggest that others are fine, and then they would have to defend their cases with their money. Link to comment
ateetshah Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 Hmm, the rule is that BS + 5 years progressive experience can be used instead of MS. That means what it says. If an employer equals MS with BS+2 or BS+3, then only the BS+2 or BS+3 would count, and not the MS, so it would be in EB3. And adding some y to it doesn't change that. This is not made up, but derived from actual posts by people... You are welcome to file a lawsuit against USCIS with your money. Don't suggest that others are fine, and then they would have to defend their cases with their money. Exactly don't suggest something that you don't even know. It's better not to make things on your whims whereas clearly it shows lack of knowledge. It's disappointing to see such posts with misinformation. Link to comment
chakrakr Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 The following will (hopefully) put this to rest . Having said that, this is CIS interpretation. DOL might still have some other interpretation supporting what JoeF is saying. http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/AFM/HTML/AFM/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-26573/0-0-0-31107.html Here is the relevant extract (example provided by CIS) -- "Position 3: Software Engineer ETA 750 Item 14: Education – Master’s or equivalent* Major Field of Study** Experience – 3 years in job offered or in the related occupation of software engineer, systems engineer, or programmer/analyst. ETA 750 Item 15: * Bachelor’s degree in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering or academic equivalent, and 5 years of progressive experience will substitute for Master’s degree in Computer Science and 3 years of such experience. ** Computer Science, Electrical Engineering or academic equivalent. This position clearly requires a master’s degree or 5 years of progressive experience. Consequently, the position requires a member of the professions holding an advanced degree. Again, assuming the beneficiary possesses these qualifications, the underlying petition should be approved. " Link to comment
ateetshah Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 Hmm, the rule is that BS + 5 years progressive experience can be used instead of MS. That means what it says. If an employer equals MS with BS+2 or BS+3, then only the BS+2 or BS+3 would count, and not the MS, so it would be in EB3. And adding some y to it doesn't change that. This is not made up, but derived from actual posts by people... You are welcome to file a lawsuit against USCIS with your money. Don't suggest that others are fine, and then they would have to defend their cases with their money. Also nobody here has asked for EB2 vs EB3. Don't use that basis is spreading misinformation. At the end of day BS + 5 or MS + 2, you can reject any application with less than 5 years of experience period. You don't need 7 years and bachelors education. So not sure what you are even talking about ? Link to comment
chakrakr Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 Actually there is more than what I posted ... I just read through. The situation (BS+5 or MS+3) is more complicated than what it appears. It essentially depends on how the requirement is listed . -- Here are more details from the same page -- "The second and third examples raise an additional question to be decided before approving some petitions -- those in which the alien beneficiary does not actually have a Master's degree. The ETA-750 in each of those cases requires that a candidate with a Master's degree must have three years' experience, but that a baccalaureate with five years' experience is acceptable. The question is whether the petitioner can include the alien's 5 years' post-baccalaureate progressive experience both to make the alien's baccalaureate the equivalent of a Master's degree and to meet the three years' experience that someone who actually does have a Master's degree must have. The answer will depend on what the ETA-750 actually says. Note that the sample ETA-750s do not require that the three years' experience must follow the receipt of a Master's degree -- only that the applicant must have both the degree and the experience. The ETA-750, therefore, does not preclude someone who just received a Master's degree from qualifying for the position on the basis of pre-Master's experience. By the same reasoning, someone with a baccalaureate degree, and experience that makes it equivalent to a Master's, can qualify based on the pre-Master's equivalency experience. If the beneficiary has a baccalaureate with five years' progressive post baccalaureate experience, the petition should be approved unless the ETA-750 clearly and explicitly requires that the level of experience that a Master's applicant must have must be post-magisterial experience. If the ETA-750 does require that the experience must have been post-magisterial experience, and the alien beneficiary just has the baccalaureate plus five years' progressive post-baccalaureate, then the alien beneficiary cannot meet the post-magisterial experience requirement. In that case, the petition should be denied, not because the alien beneficiary is not an advance degree professional, but because the alien does not meet the actual qualifications as stated on the ETA-750. See K.R.K. Irvine, Inc., v. Landon, 699 F.2d 1006 (9 th Cir. 1983); Matter of Wing's Tea House, 16 I & N Dec. 158 (INS 1977). " Link to comment
JoeF Posted August 19, 2013 Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 Actually there is more than what I posted ... I just read through. The situation (BS+5 or MS+3) is more complicated than what it appears. It essentially depends on how the requirement is listed . -- Here are more details from the same page -- "The second and third examples raise an additional question to be decided before approving some petitions -- those in which the alien beneficiary does not actually have a Master's degree. The ETA-750 in each of those cases requires that a candidate with a Master's degree must have three years' experience, but that a baccalaureate with five years' experience is acceptable. The question is whether the petitioner can include the alien's 5 years' post-baccalaureate progressive experience both to make the alien's baccalaureate the equivalent of a Master's degree and to meet the three years' experience that someone who actually does have a Master's degree must have And that's exactly what my answer was based on. BS+5 matches the MS. If the job requires MS+x for x > 0, then BS+5 is not enough. Link to comment
chakrakr Posted August 19, 2013 Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 And that's exactly what my answer was based on. BS+5 matches the MS. If the job requires MS+x for x > 0, then BS+5 is not enough. I do not have the insight of a laywer and this appears to be a somewhat complex scenario. But from what I comprehend, having BS+5 or MS+2 in PERM does not always cause a denial of 140 nor is the job classified as EB3. This is what I understand -- 1) If PERM does not specifically say that +3 experience must be after Masters, it is fine. 2) If the benefeciary has a Masters, it is not at all a problem because the text says that a question arises ONLY IF beneficiary does not have Masters ("raise an additional question to be decided before approving some petitions -- those in which the alien beneficiary does not actually have a Master's degree.") . From your earlier arguments it appears you were saying that a beneficiary having MS will also have problem. Link to comment
JoeF Posted August 19, 2013 Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 I do not have the insight of a laywer and this appears to be a somewhat complex scenario. But from what I comprehend, having BS+5 or MS+2 in PERM does not always cause a denial of 140 nor is the job classified as EB3. This is what I understand -- 1) If PERM does not specifically say that +3 experience must be after Masters, it is fine. 2) If the benefeciary has a Masters, it is not at all a problem because the text says that a question arises ONLY IF beneficiary does not have Masters ("raise an additional question to be decided before approving some petitions -- those in which the alien beneficiary does not actually have a Master's degree.") . From your earlier arguments it appears you were saying that a beneficiary having MS will also have problem. Why would there even be an alternative requirement if the job requires an MS and the person has an MS? The alternative stuff is usually only used if the person doesn't have an MS. Link to comment
chakrakr Posted August 19, 2013 Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 Why would there even be an alternative requirement if the job requires an MS and the person has an MS? The alternative stuff is usually only used if the person doesn't have an MS. Why would some do is rather an irrelevant point. The job might require MS +X or BS + Y irrespective of beneficiary's qualification. Further, even with a Bachelors, it can qualify (if we read the explanation carefully) . The question is , does specifying BS+5 or MS+2 makes a case automatically EB3 and the answer appears to be no? The question is does specifying BS+5 or MS+2 legally can cause a denial ? And the answer is not necessarily Link to comment
ateetshah Posted August 19, 2013 Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 Why would there even be an alternative requirement if the job requires an MS and the person has an MS? The alternative stuff is usually only used if the person doesn't have an MS. Doesn't matter why. It is possible. As long as experience is BS+5 and/or MS + 0 or X and beneficiary has US masters degree and/or 4 year foreign/US Bachelors degree or equivalent, it will be EB2 period. Link to comment
ateetshah Posted August 19, 2013 Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 Why would there even be an alternative requirement if the job requires an MS and the person has an MS? The alternative stuff is usually only used if the person doesn't have an MS. Also to not that BS + 5 with 3yr foreign bachelors and US Masters is also considered EB2. That is why sometimes HR/Lawyer/Firms put the Masters + X provision. Link to comment
ateetshah Posted August 19, 2013 Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 Why would there even be an alternative requirement if the job requires an MS and the person has an MS? The alternative stuff is usually only used if the person doesn't have an MS. Also what's laughable about your comment is why would you intentionally put masters as a requirement when the beneficiary doesn't have masters degree ? Wouldn't that be making the position up the wrong way ? As always burden of proof is on petitioner. There is no one size fits all model here. Link to comment
JoeF Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Doesn't matter why. It is possible. As long as experience is BS+5 and/or MS + 0 or X and beneficiary has US masters degree and/or 4 year foreign/US Bachelors degree or equivalent, it will be EB2 period. Oh, so you can guarantee that??? Provide your name, address, and qualifications. I am sure there are people who would like to sue you for giving wrong information. If the description says BS+3+x or MS+x, it won't be EB2. People have gotten EB2 denied in such cases. THAT'S the fact. Link to comment
JoeF Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Also what's laughable about your comment is why would you intentionally put masters as a requirement when the beneficiary doesn't have masters degree ? Wouldn't that be making the position up the wrong way ? As always burden of proof is on petitioner. There is no one size fits all model here. Thanks for making my point. You falsely claimed that BS+5 or MS+x would always be EB2, which is WRONG! As you so nicely said, there is no one-size-fits-all here. Case closed. Link to comment
chakrakr Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Oh, so you can guarantee that??? Provide your name, address, and qualifications. I am sure there are people who would like to sue you for giving wrong information. If the description says BS+3+x or MS+x, it won't be EB2. People have gotten EB2 denied in such cases. THAT'S the fact. Why blame njdude ? Didn't you claim all along that BS + 5 OR MS + 2 never works? Care to provide the list of people whose EB2 got denied for listing BS +5 or MS +2 Link to comment
chakrakr Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Thanks for making my point. You falsely claimed that BS+5 or MS+x would always be EB2, which is WRONG! As you so nicely said, there is no one-size-fits-all here. Case closed. And you falsely claimed that BS+5 or MS +2 will ALWAYS be EB3 , which is WRONG ! Both of you are wrong :) Link to comment
chakrakr Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Oh, so you can guarantee that??? Provide your name, address, and qualifications. I am sure there are people who would like to sue you for giving wrong information. If the description says BS+3+x or MS+x, it won't be EB2. People have gotten EB2 denied in such cases. THAT'S the fact. As a matter of fact USCIS echoes what njdude said. This is what njdude said "As long as experience is BS+5 and/or MS + 0 or X and beneficiary has US masters degree and/or 4 year foreign/US Bachelors degree or equivalent, it will be EB2 period." He DID NOT say BS+3+x And njdude is right in this post. Per the USCIS document which I cited says that it raises a question only when "alien beneficiary does not actually have a Master's degree." Link to comment
ateetshah Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Oh, so you can guarantee that??? Provide your name, address, and qualifications. I am sure there are people who would like to sue you for giving wrong information. If the description says BS+3+x or MS+x, it won't be EB2. People have gotten EB2 denied in such cases. THAT'S the fact. Well I said 5+ years for BS is minimum or EB2. 5+ years BS will be EB2 unless magic language is used. Don't need to be combative here. Neither you or me are qualified. Just opinions. Again as with everything, USCIS and DOL will deny cases filed right and will approve cases filed wrong all the time. It's luck of th draw as well sometimes. Also the guidance given is not always black and white. All of this is grey area and with no AAO precedent, it could be anything. Remember it's the humans who make decisions with USCIS and DOL and trust me most of them are paid much less than most petitions. Link to comment
JoeF Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Because "all of this is a grey area" (written gray in American English, btw.), telling people things are going to be fine is a bad thing to do. Telling people to avoid all the gray areas by not using stuff like "BS+5 or MS+2" is a good thing. Make things easy and clear and according to the rules, and there aren't many problems. Try to skirt the rules, and problems are likely. Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.