Indian citizenship for US born kid

[DTWCanadian]

Upon more thorough perusal: seriously? what is this illegal entry/stay you are talking about? The child entered using Indian passport which has the stamp that shows the entry date of this child. Even though the passport is now cancelled because the child renounced Indian citizenship. Attested photocopies of the passport prior to cancellation would be available too.  No illegal entry or illegal stay ever occurred. May be there is more to the story that you have mentioned here.

Secondly, the consulate just went ahead and issued US passport even if the parents did not ask for one. That is curious; do they not have to request the passport to be issued it?

Further, I do not think getting US passport is that easy for minors especially at a consulate abroad.Both parents have to appear and submit proof of USC for their child. If they registered birth at indian consulate in the US, I doubt the birth certificate issued by the indian consulate in the US would itself be sufficient evidence for obtaining US passport.

Many details are missing from the example you have given. Could you please elaborate on these points?

 

What I stated is a possibility that could occur based on an experience of an adult. The adult was born in the US when the parents were living as a student (in the 70s) in the US. When they returned to India, the child held an Indian passport. No issues until she got married to a USC and the USC tried to sponsor her GC which failed since US treated her as a USC. So they issued her a US passport. Now mind you, this individual had never traveled outside India until then (after the family's return to India in the 70s). So, there were no entry stamps into India on the most recent passport(s). With US PP, she was free to accompany her spouse and that's when problem started. Indian emigration refused to her departure due to the US passport (no entry stamps in the passport and therefore the trigger of illegal stay). When they explained further, they claimed she acquired Indian PP via fraud and hence the fiasco.

 

Anyway, holding an Indian PP for a USC is not a problem as long there is no travel b/w India and the US. Also, where you have mentioned that the child entered India using Indian PP and there is a stamp there. True, agreed. However, will Indian authorities agree on an entry using Indian PP (where there is the stamp) and then try to travel to US with a US PP? You can't travel with a US PP by showing the stamp in the Indian PP. That is where the lack of dual citizenship mandate affects Indian citizens.

 

Maybe what you meant was you could enter India using Indian PP, cancel the Indian PP (citizenship voided) when US PP was obtained and (as needed) show the cancelled Indian PP to prove legal entry. This path wouldn't be an issue when the child is outside India. However, by doing that within India, don't you have to have some form of legal authorization to stay in India under the US PP the moment Indian citizenship is lost?

 

I am not claiming to be right; however, the discussion itself demonstrates there could be issues for this kind of situation if and when the child travels b/w US and India.

[DTWCanadian]

The child (parents) could have just traveled to another country other than the US and legitimately applied for a visa to visit the same.

The child can apply for a visa to any country other than the US. Yes, that's possible. However, can't apply for a visa to the US as the child is a USC. Entry to the US may have been possible by road using birth certificate (as someone mentioned in the previous pages) until a certain age.

[DTWCanadian]

Moreover, PR or USC can travel to canada anytime they want. Having a canadian passport for a USC (naturalized or otherwise) does not add any value (at least for the travel).

Just extra hassle to renew the passport and perhaps some tax consequences.

True to an extent. In general, countries that permit dual citizenships normally insist on using the country's PP to request entry.

 

Me and my wife are Canadians with Green Card and our son is a dual US / Cdn. We travel frequently between US and Canada as we have ties in both. So far we have been able to enter with my son's US PP. However, for us, they insist on us showing Cdn PP instead of Green Card. How that might change if and when we become USC - time will tell. With Cdn PP, I am guaranteed entry into Canada while with GC (or other PP), we are "admitted under the officer's discretion" (technicality).

[chakrakr]

Consider this scenario which has occurred to someone I know.

 

So, the bigger problem might not be how to enter the US, rather, how to leave India in the first place. 

 

Back to first paragraph above. If the US denies a visa and issues a US passport instead at the local consulate, then it would invalidate the Indian citizenship. Now if the child shows up at Indian emigration with the US passport, the Indian officials would like to see the entry date and an Indian visa on the US passport, both of which would not be available since the child held an Indian passport before. This would trigger a claim of illegal entry/stay in India by the child.

 

The above scenario happened to someone. A lot of bribe, high level Govt intervention and several months were consumed in this fiasco.

 

Don't spread rumour .   When one renounces Indian Citizenship,  the passport is NOT held by Government of India.  The Passport is marked cancelled and returned back.   The Cancelled passport will have the entry stamp.   That is the proof of legal entry to India. 

[JoeF]

Don't spread rumour .   When one renounces Indian Citizenship,  the passport is NOT held by Government of India.  The Passport is marked cancelled and returned back.   The Cancelled passport will have the entry stamp.   That is the proof of legal entry to India. 

The only one spreading rumors and trying to find loopholes is you.

I suggest you follow your own advice.

[chakrakr]

The only one spreading rumors and trying to find loopholes is you.

I suggest you follow your own advice.

 

I have simply quoted CBP in toto.  If that is "rumor" , I suggest you take your fight with CBP. 

[DTWCanadian]

Don't spread rumour .   When one renounces Indian Citizenship,  the passport is NOT held by Government of India.  The Passport is marked cancelled and returned back.   The Cancelled passport will have the entry stamp.   That is the proof of legal entry to India. 

 And where did I state anything about who holds the passport ? What rumor am I spreading?

[DTWCanadian]

Hi

We are Indian citizens going to have kid in USA.  But we are planning for Indian citizenship only. 

After kid is born we are planning for a month vacation to India.

Can kid travel in/out of USA with kids Indian passport ? is kid eligible to get US visa on Indian passport since kid is born in US ?

we don't have plans to settle here. may be for next three years can kid travel with kids Indian passport in/out of USA ?

 Not sure if you received information what you were looking for.

 

My 2 cents - Have your child in the USA, obtain US PP and apply for PIO card. This path will allow least problems since you intend to travel multiple times.

 

Once you permanently move to India, you can opt to get your child Indian citizenship. That will fulfil your wishes.

 

Long term - when the child turns 18, he/she can decide whether to opt Indian citizenship (renounce US) or obtain US PP and void Indian citizenship.

 

The drawback of the above is investment of money/efforts/time and dealing with the beauracracies over a period of time.

 

Best wishes to you.

[chakrakr]

 And where did I state anything about who holds the passport ? What rumor am I spreading?

 

you said the Emigration official caused problem because the child could not prove a legal entry to India.  That is what is untrue.  A legal entry to India is easily established showing the Indian Passport which has the entry stamp.  

[DTWCanadian]

you said the Emigration official caused problem because the child could not prove a legal entry to India.  That is what is untrue.  A legal entry to India is easily established showing the Indian Passport which has the entry stamp.  

 

That's correct. When the individual produced a US PP that did not have an entry stamp, it caused a problem. The entry could have been proved through the Indian PP which should have been cancelled, but was not in this individual's case. Therefore, in the eyes of Indians, the individual held both a valid Indian and a valid US PP which is not allowed by India. Hence the problem.

 

What I don't know which I presented in few posts above is, can the individual while living/staying in India cancel the Indian PP after obtaining US PP? Yes, the stamps are present; however, the entry was made using Indian PP, then cancelled, now has a US PP and trying to depart on a US PP. What was the legal authorization to stay in India during the period the US PP was valid, but the Indian PP was not (mind you, there were no Indian visas on the US PP).

[JoeF]

you said the Emigration official caused problem because the child could not prove a legal entry to India.  That is what is untrue.  A legal entry to India is easily established showing the Indian Passport which has the entry stamp.  

Except that the child would not be an Indian anymore, making the child's stay in India illegal...

These things are one reason why this trying to find loopholes stuff is a really bad idea.

 

[chakrakr]

What I stated is a possibility that could occur based on an experience of an adult. The adult was born in the US when the parents were living as a student (in the 70s) in the US. When they returned to India, the child held an Indian passport. No issues until she got married to a USC and the USC tried to sponsor her GC which failed since US treated her as a USC. So they issued her a US passport. Now mind you, this individual had never traveled outside India until then (after the family's return to India in the 70s). So, there were no entry stamps into India on the most recent passport(s). With US PP, she was free to accompany her spouse and that's when problem started. Indian emigration refused to her departure due to the US passport (no entry stamps in the passport and therefore the trigger of illegal stay). When they explained further, they claimed she acquired Indian PP via fraud and hence the fiasco.

 

Anyway, holding an Indian PP for a USC is not a problem as long there is no travel b/w India and the US. Also, where you have mentioned that the child entered India using Indian PP and there is a stamp there. True, agreed. However, will Indian authorities agree on an entry using Indian PP (where there is the stamp) and then try to travel to US with a US PP? You can't travel with a US PP by showing the stamp in the Indian PP. That is where the lack of dual citizenship mandate affects Indian citizens.

 

Maybe what you meant was you could enter India using Indian PP, cancel the Indian PP (citizenship voided) when US PP was obtained and (as needed) show the cancelled Indian PP to prove legal entry. This path wouldn't be an issue when the child is outside India. However, by doing that within India, don't you have to have some form of legal authorization to stay in India under the US PP the moment Indian citizenship is lost?

 

I am not claiming to be right; however, the discussion itself demonstrates there could be issues for this kind of situation if and when the child travels b/w US and India.

 

 

If someone want to continue to be a Indian Citizen after becoming an Adult,  one is supposed to renounce US Citizenship   when one is 18 years.   That is Indian Law.  In above case,  the person violated the law and rightly had a problem.   He/she could have easily solved by renouncing the US Citizenship  .  An Adult CAN renounce US Citizenship in a US Consulate.

 

Further,   there is NO law which says that you cannot enter using a Indian Passport.   Did the person show the Indian PAssport whcih he used to enter India ?

[chakrakr]

 Not sure if you received information what you were looking for.

 

My 2 cents - Have your child in the USA, obtain US PP and apply for PIO card. This path will allow least problems since you intend to travel multiple times.

 

Once you permanently move to India, you can opt to get your child Indian citizenship. That will fulfil your wishes.

 

Long term - when the child turns 18, he/she can decide whether to opt Indian citizenship (renounce US) or obtain US PP and void Indian citizenship.

 

The drawback of the above is investment of money/efforts/time and dealing with the beauracracies over a period of time.

 

Best wishes to you.

 

Almost correct.

 

 

However,  the following statement is incorrect --  "Once you permanently move to India, you can opt to get your child Indian citizenship. That will fulfil your wishes."

 

The child CANNOT get Indian Citizenship till he/she is 18 years and renounces US Citizenship  (though an Attorney mentioned in his forum that there are case laws where parents were allowed to renounce the US citizenship of a child but I could not find any further reference)

[chakrakr]

 

 

However, will Indian authorities agree on an entry using Indian PP (where there is the stamp) and then try to travel to US with a US PP? You can't travel with a US PP by showing the stamp in the Indian PP.

 

Who says so ? 

[DTWCanadian]

Who says so ? 

 

So, if I understand you right, I can enter India with a valid Indian passport for my 10 month trip, six months into my stay obtain USC based on my US birth, get a US PP, somehow find a way to let the Indian authorities know I have acquired USC, have them cancel my Indian PP and stay in India as a USC with no legal authorization for the remaining 4 months, try to depart India at the end of my 10 months, show them my cancelled Indian PP and say, "see I entered legally although I am now a USC", and everything would be fine.

 

I say, no, it would not sit well with Indian emigration since I accrued 4 months of illegal stay in India on my US PP assuming I can even get somebody in the Indian Govt to cancel my Indian PP in the first place while I am in the middle of my stay in India. If I am unable to get my Indian PP cancelled, then I am again violating the Indian law as I can't hold dual citizenship with India.

 

It's not about "who says so?". The logic you appear to be suggesting as possible has a lot of holes. But hey, since you feel you are right, who am I to argue. Knock yourself out and I am out of this discussion. Enjoy your weekend.

[chakrakr]

So, if I understand you right, I can enter India with a valid Indian passport for my 10 month trip, six months into my stay obtain USC based on my US birth, get a US PP, somehow find a way to let the Indian authorities know I have acquired USC, have them cancel my Indian PP and stay in India as a USC with no legal authorization for the remaining 4 months, try to depart India at the end of my 10 months, show them my cancelled Indian PP and say, "see I entered legally although I am now a USC", and everything would be fine.

 

I say, no, it would not sit well with Indian emigration since I accrued 4 months of illegal stay in India on my US PP assuming I can even get somebody in the Indian Govt to cancel my Indian PP in the first place while I am in the middle of my stay in India. If I am unable to get my Indian PP cancelled, then I am again violating the Indian law as I can't hold dual citizenship with India.

 

It's not about "who says so?". The logic you appear to be suggesting as possible has a lot of holes. But hey, since you feel you are right, who am I to argue. Knock yourself out and I am out of this discussion. Enjoy your weekend.

 

When you continued to hold your Indian Passport for 4 months after  acquiring a US Passport , you violated the Indian Passport law right there .  All your other arguments fall apart.   And again,   the adult in the case you cited (you first said child , later changed to adult )   violated Indian Passport law by not renouncing US citizenship on acuiring full age (18 years ) .     You are deviating far from the primary point of this thread.

[chakrakr]

So, if I understand you right, I can enter India with a valid Indian passport for my 10 month trip, six months into my stay obtain USC based on my US birth, get a US PP, somehow find a way to let the Indian authorities know I have acquired USC, have them cancel my Indian PP and stay in India as a USC with no legal authorization for the remaining 4 months, try to depart India at the end of my 10 months, show them my cancelled Indian PP and say, "see I entered legally although I am now a USC", and everything would be fine.

 

I say, no, it would not sit well with Indian emigration since I accrued 4 months of illegal stay in India on my US PP assuming I can even get somebody in the Indian Govt to cancel my Indian PP in the first place while I am in the middle of my stay in India. If I am unable to get my Indian PP cancelled, then I am again violating the Indian law as I can't hold dual citizenship with India.

 

It's not about "who says so?". The logic you appear to be suggesting as possible has a lot of holes. But hey, since you feel you are right, who am I to argue. Knock yourself out and I am out of this discussion. Enjoy your weekend.

 

 

Why would you stay for 4 months after obtaining a foreign passport ?  You obtain a foreign passport to travel to that country ... right?  So why do you plan to stay after that ?   That is right where your intent to violet the law.

[tusharvk]

what was described is  one case from 70's where the person clearly violated the law.

Certainly a legitimate way to accomplish this and lawyer would have to be involved both in India and US.

US born child enters india with indian passport and has a stamp to prove this. child is now adult and decides to stay in India and can legitimately renounce the USC in a consulate. all within the gambit of the law.

Then the adult is married to USC and again wants to immigrate to US. With renounced USC, the adult can legitimately go to consulate and say I need green card through marriage. No problem within the gambit of the law.

So much for the digression.

 

Outstanding issues still are:

any case law to prove that the child will be denied visitor visa to US ifs\he holds Indian passport because both parents are Indian passport holders and is in India. (The US consulate will not just give the child US passport as it would be very strange situation and the consular officer will understand this).

will the child if s\he shows up at US POE be denied entry for lack of US passport and just a birth certificate. again no case laws.

 

It seems a legitimate thing to do since the same treatment will be given to child born in India of USC parents. (child will be naturalized USC) and again the parents want to visit India; Indian consulate is unlikely to insist the child apply for Indian passport since s\he is born there.

[tusharvk]

please go through my post about open issues. You will understand.

We would like to have this thread not locked so that others who know an comment.

[JoeF]

please go through my post about open issues. You will understand.

We would like to have this thread not locked so that others who know an comment.

There are no open issues.

All your "open issues" are invalid.

A child born in the US is a US citizen, and nobody can change that other than the child himself or herself when the child turns 18. You need to understand this basic fact, and then all your "issues" go away.

[tusharvk]

What I stated is a possibility that could occur based on an experience of an adult. The adult was born in the US when the parents were living as a student (in the 70s) in the US. When they returned to India, the child held an Indian passport. No issues until she got married to a USC and the USC tried to sponsor her GC which failed since US treated her as a USC. So they issued her a US passport. Now mind you, this individual had never traveled outside India until then (after the family's return to India in the 70s). So, there were no entry stamps into India on the most recent passport(s). With US PP, she was free to accompany her spouse and that's when problem started. Indian emigration refused to her departure due to the US passport (no entry stamps in the passport and therefore the trigger of illegal stay). When they explained further, they claimed she acquired Indian PP via fraud and hence the fiasco.

 

Anyway, holding an Indian PP for a USC is not a problem as long there is no travel b/w India and the US. Also, where you have mentioned that the child entered India using Indian PP and there is a stamp there. True, agreed. However, will Indian authorities agree on an entry using Indian PP (where there is the stamp) and then try to travel to US with a US PP? You can't travel with a US PP by showing the stamp in the Indian PP. That is where the lack of dual citizenship mandate affects Indian citizens.

 

Maybe what you meant was you could enter India using Indian PP, cancel the Indian PP (citizenship voided) when US PP was obtained and (as needed) show the cancelled Indian PP to prove legal entry. This path wouldn't be an issue when the child is outside India. However, by doing that within India, don't you have to have some form of legal authorization to stay in India under the US PP the moment Indian citizenship is lost?

 

I am not claiming to be right; however, the discussion itself demonstrates there could be issues for this kind of situation if and when the child travels b/w US and India.

sorry you got forced out of the discussion here.

Anyway, I am not aware of a way to enter India and have your passport not be stamped with entry stamp. They are highly meticulous about doing this while entering as well as exiting.

So curious why this child's passport was not stamped with entry stamp.

Was that because the child never held a passport? How could s\he travel then?

Secondly as it happens in the US that sometimes you arrive and your I94 or visa expires and you do apply for extension authorized stay and are granted the same. Why do you think MEA in India does not have similar provision?

For example, consider a baby born to US couple while the couple is travelling in India. The couple is then advised to extend their stay for medical reasons. Then they will extend their visa to India. At the same time, they will need to at some point get a US passport for their newborn and apply for the baby's visa too. This is hypothetical but very possible scenario.

 

India can apply the laws within the provision that it does not allow dual citizenship. Why does it not allow dual citizenship in the first place is a subject of separate discussion and irrelevant here.

[JoeF]

sorry you got forced out of the discussion here.

Anyway, I am not aware of a way to enter India and have your passport not be stamped with entry stamp. They are highly meticulous about doing this while entering as well as exiting.

So curious why this child's passport was not stamped with entry stamp.

Was that because the child never held a passport? How could s\he travel then?

Secondly as it happens in the US that sometimes you arrive and your I94 or visa expires and you do apply for extension authorized stay and are granted the same. Why do you think MEA in India does not have similar provision?

For example, consider a baby born to US couple while the couple is travelling in India. The couple is then advised to extend their stay for medical reasons. Then they will extend their visa to India. At the same time, they will need to at some point get a US passport for their newborn and apply for the baby's visa too. This is hypothetical but very possible scenario.

 

India can apply the laws within the provision that it does not allow dual citizenship. Why does it not allow dual citizenship in the first place is a subject of separate discussion and irrelevant here.

The child's Indian passport was most likely stamped.

But the person got a US passport, which a US citizen has to have to enter the US.

And that's when the problem starts, because the person entered India with the Indian passport, but actually was a US citizen.

That's exactly why doing the simple and right thing, getting a US passport for the child, is the best and easiest way to avoid all these problems.

A child born in the US is a US citizen and needs to get a US passport to leave and enter the US.

That's all there is to it. Very simple, very easy to understand.

[tusharvk]

The child's Indian passport was most likely stamped.

are you sure?

Then why the issue comes up?

The post described all sort of hassle that occurred even after the person got US passport to come to US.

It was not clear why the indian passport was stamped or not. Let us not jump to conclusion even though it will require a lot of patience and open mind.

[JoeF]

are you sure?

Then why the issue comes up?

The post described all sort of hassle that occurred even after the person got US passport to come to US.

It was not clear why the indian passport was stamped or not. Let us not jump to conclusion even though it will require a lot of patience and open mind.

Are you really so dense to not see that hiding the US citizenship and then giving up Indian citizenship and continuing to live in India would result in problems???

There is a reason why a US citizen can only give up US citizenship at a US Consulate abroad.

In this case, the person had no status in India (to use the US terms) after giving up Indian citizenship. In other words, the person was illegally in India.

And of course that results in problems, just as being out of status in the US results in problems.

That's why this whole "get an Indian passport, and you can always get a US passport when you are going to the US" stuff doesn't work.

 

Follow the rules and there are no problems. Try to find loopholes, and you end up in lots of problems.

Really simple stuff.

[tusharvk]

Are you really so dense to not see that hiding the US citizenship and then giving up Indian citizenship and continuing to live in India would result in problems???

There is a reason why a US citizen can only give up US citizenship at a US Consulate abroad.

In this case, the person had no status in India (to use the US terms) after giving up Indian citizenship. In other words, the person was illegally in India.

And of course that results in problems, just as being out of status in the US results in problems.

That's why this whole "get an Indian passport, and you can always get a US passport when you are going to the US" stuff doesn't work.

 

Follow the rules and there are no problems. Try to find loopholes, and you end up in lots of problems.

Really simple stuff.

wait. you are digressing again; please quit doing that. This example was digression and the outstanding issues still persist. Please read my earlier post and you can find what the open issues are.

coming back to the query I had raised: are you sure the indian passport was stamped at the poe in India? The author of that post got fed up and left the discussion. So you are only speculating.

There were a lot of holes in that story. Here are they (not asking you to answer those, so please do not):

-why did this person never have an entry stamp in the passport?

- why did the person never apply for green card legitimately through marriage?

- why did the consulate go ahead and issue the person US passport? was it involuntary or upon application? In the former case, no law gets broken as the passport has to be voluntarily acquired to break Indian law.

- why did the person not get adequately counseled from an attorney? or at the very least from the consul officer who issued the US passport? Consulates in India know Indian laws and would not want a USC to land in trouble on foreign soil

-why did this person not apply for a visa to stay in India upon acquiring of a foreign passport?

 

It is quite hard to understand these points indeed. The example does not serve as valid case law to "jump" to the conclusion it is mandatory to get a US passport even if somebody is born in the US and stays here for just a few months and later stays in India for the rest of the life.

 

I am keeping the  discussion within the gambit of the law; not trying to find loop holes.