Indian citizenship for US born kid

[tusharvk]

http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html:

"Citizenship is a status that is personal to the U.S. citizen.  Therefore, parents may not renounce the citizenship of their minor children."

but it is perfectly legal for parents to acquire USC and therby their minor children becoming citizens?

Quite contradiction.

 

What is mentioned in the consulate of India website still stands. The minor can acquire indian passport on the basis of the parents being Indian citizens. The child's place of birth will be US.

with the undertaking the parents have given at the time of the passport application of the child, they should be able to apply for the dependent visa.

Again case law or precedents would help showing the child was denied US visa.

[tusharvk]

The bottom line is that a child born in the US is a US citizen.

NOBODY, no country, no parents, NOBODY can change that.

That is all there is to it.

Period. End of story. There is nothing else to discuss.

creates paradox especially since at the time of acquiring USC a family (with minor child born in India) will give up indian citizenship not just for themselves but also for the child.

[JoeF]

creates paradox especially since at the time of acquiring USC a family (with minor child born in India) will give up indian citizenship not just for themselves but also for the child.

Hmm, not really.

While minor children get US citizenship when the parents get US citizenship, that doesn't imply that the parents give up other citizenships for such children.

If India strips such children of their Indian citizenship, that is India's laws, not US laws.

If you don't like that, please address Indian lawmakers to change their laws.

The US doesn't care if such children have other citizenships in addition.

[JoeF]

but it is perfectly legal for parents to acquire USC and therby their minor children becoming citizens?

Quite contradiction.

The contradiction is only in your mind.

The children become US citizens, and that has nothing at all to do with other citizenships the children may have.

 

What is mentioned in the consulate of India website still stands. The minor can acquire indian passport on the basis of the parents being Indian citizens. The child's place of birth will be US.

with the undertaking the parents have given at the time of the passport application of the child, they should be able to apply for the dependent visa.

Again case law or precedents would help showing the child was denied US visa.

Sigh.

Getting an Indian passport does NOT mean that the child wouldn't be a US citizen anymore.

Get it into your head!

A child born in the US is a US citizen, even if such child has an Indian passport.

US citizens can NOT and WILL NOT get any kind of visa to the US.

A US citizen doesn't need any visa to the US.

A US citizen needs a US passport to leave and enter the US.

Period. End of story.

NO US consulate in the world will issue a US visa to a US citizen. It is simply NOT possible. Visas are for foreigners.

IIf you don't believe me, go ahead and have a child in the US, and try getting a visa to the US for the child. It WILL NOT happen.

 

The bottom line: A child born in the US is a US citizen and needs a US passport to leave and enter the US.

Period. End of story.

[rahul412]

Joe, this might be unrelated question. If a person born in US is US citizen, then why I read that their are millions of undocumented teenagers?? Are they not born in US??

[tusharvk]

Hmm, not really.

While minor children get US citizenship when the parents get US citizenship, that doesn't imply that the parents give up other citizenships for such children.

it is going to happen for citizens of many countries that they will be required to give up their passports to their governments upon acquiring US passports (not only for India).

 

The discussion is purely theoretical if there can not be cited any case laws that substantiate that the US born minor was denied US visa.

[JoeF]

Joe, this might be unrelated question. If a person born in US is US citizen, then why I read that their are millions of undocumented teenagers?? Are they not born in US??

These kids were brought to the US as small children, so they had no say in it.

[JoeF]

it is going to happen for citizens of many countries that they will be required to give up their passports to their governments upon acquiring US passports (not only for India).

 

The discussion is purely theoretical if there can not be cited any case laws that substantiate that the US born minor was denied US visa.

Most countries do the right thing, and don't revoke their citizenship if the person gets another citizenship.

[cap-gap]

Joe, this might be unrelated question. If a person born in US is US citizen, then why I read that their are millions of undocumented teenagers?? Are they not born in US??

 

referring to those teenagers benefited by DREAM act? they were infants born outside, who came along with their illegally entering parents...really a sorry position to be in..it was not their fault..

[cap-gap]

 

The discussion is purely theoretical if there can not be cited any case laws that substantiate that the US born minor was denied US visa.

 

I have seen people posting to such effect..

 

bottom line is USA can make 'law' stating that it is the center of the solar system..ROW does not care, esp now a days, where world dynamics are changing..eg., recent leaks case..a traitor of this country is an honored guest in another country..

 

It is true that there exists a 'rule' by state dept for US born minor to carry a US passport,  with no penalty defined for violation of such rule..and do not see any intention by state to enforced that rule..

 

there are several other funny local state laws too (google it)..still left in place for nostalgic and to get an historical perspective...

[rahul412]

So what about the kids who were born to these undocumented parents?? Do they get citizenship bcos they born in US??

[tusharvk]

It is true that there exists a 'rule' by state dept for US born minor to carry a US passport,  with no penalty defined for violation of such rule..and do not see any intention by state to enforced that rule..

 

 

This is why I asked JoeF to put some precedents here which would define how the rules are interpreted by judges.

 

Not to encourage law breaking; but to have discussion about the application by india born parents to apply indian passport for their child. If the child shows up at consulate to apply for dependent visa, what will happen

If the said child does show up at POE without visa with foreign passport, what will happen.

 

Case laws please rather than criticizing a country for not mimicing how US defines citizenship.

[tusharvk]

So what about the kids who were born to these undocumented parents?? Do they get citizenship bcos they born in US??

yes and this was not the purpose of this thread.

[JoeF]

So what about the kids who were born to these undocumented parents?? Do they get citizenship bcos they born in US??

Yes, ALL children born in the US are US citizens (except children of diplomats), regardless of the status of their parents.

[JoeF]

I have seen people posting to such effect..

 

bottom line is USA can make 'law' stating that it is the center of the solar system..ROW does not care, esp now a days, where world dynamics are changing..eg., recent leaks case..a traitor of this country is an honored guest in another country..

 

It is true that there exists a 'rule' by state dept for US born minor to carry a US passport,  with no penalty defined for violation of such rule..and do not see any intention by state to enforced that rule..

 

there are several other funny local state laws too (google it)..still left in place for nostalgic and to get an historical perspective...

Somebody born in the US has a US birth certificate.

So, any foreign passport would show the place of birth as being in the US.

That's the giveaway that would alert a consular officer that the person is a US citizen.

From http://travel.state.gov/visa/questions/questions_1253.html#claim:

"If a person is a U.S. citizen, he or she is not eligible for a visa."

I hope we can put this to rest now.

The bottom line: A child born in the US is a US citizen and therefore can NOT get a US visa. Period.

This also applies if the child in addition to the US citizenship has citizenship of some other country.

This also applies if the US citizen child does not have a US passport.

Not having a US passport does not mean that the person doesn't have US citizenship. For example, until entering the national stage in 2008, Sarah Palin did not have a US passport. That only means that she didn't travel outside the US. She is a US citizen by birth, of course, regardless of her not having a US passport for most of her life.

 

So, once more:

The bottom line: A child born in the US is a US citizen and therefore can NOT get a US visa. Period.

Even if the US currently doesn't enforce the requirement of showing a US passport when traveling out of the US, a US citizen still needs a US passport to enter the US, so unless the trip out of the US is a one-way trip, a US passport for sure is required. Such person would not be able to get a US visa in a foreign passport due to the person being a US citizen.

[JoeF]

bottom line is USA can make 'law' stating that it is the center of the solar system..

The US can certainly make laws for US citizens, and they can make and have made laws about who is a US citizen. The 14th Amendment to the US Constitution says that everybody born in the US under US jurisdiction is a US citizen.

Now, the US can't enforce their laws outside of the US. But they can and do enforce the US laws on US soil.

That means that a US citizen needs to have a US passport to enter the US (the US currently does not enforce the US passport requirement in the law when a US citizen is traveling out of the US.)

It also means that the US consulates will not give US visas to US citizens. US consulates are US soil, and US laws apply there.

 

The bottom line is that a child born in the US needs to get a US passport when traveling abroad. Even with the passport requirement when leaving not being enforced, the passport requirement when entering is enforced.

The airlines wouldn't even let the child on board if the child doesn't have a US passport. A foreign passport would miss the visa, so the airline would not let the child on board with a foreign passport. And the child can't get a US visa in a foreign passport, due to the child being a US citizen.

It really isn't rocket science.

[rahul412]

yes and this was not the purpose of this thread.

My purpose of this post was to clear my doubt. But thanks for your info.

[JoeF]

This is why I asked JoeF to put some precedents here which would define how the rules are interpreted by judges.

 

Not to encourage law breaking; but to have discussion about the application by india born parents to apply indian passport for their child. If the child shows up at consulate to apply for dependent visa, what will happen

If the said child does show up at POE without visa with foreign passport, what will happen.

 

Case laws please rather than criticizing a country for not mimicing how US defines citizenship.

The rules are in the law.

All this stuff about citizenship has gone up to the Supreme Court. Just use your favorite search engine.

A US citizen who wants to get a US visa in a US consulate wouldn't get one, and there is nothing to sue about.

And such a person would not even get into a US-bound airplane, because the airline would not allow such person to board, due to the lack of the appropriate paperwork.

There is NOTHING else to discuss.

 

If you don't like it, or you don't believe it, try it.

 

Again, the bottom line: A child born in the US is a US citizen, regardless if the child gets a passport from some other country or not!

A child born in the US has to use a US passport to leave and enter the US. Period. End of discussion.

[tusharvk]

what if the parents just drive their US born child across a land border?

This way the child can show up at the US border without boarding a US bound plane.

There is not a good way for land POE to deny the entry to the USC to US soil. It is the birthright of the child to enter and leave as s\he pleases.

 

Case laws or precedents can be results of law suits. But also certain decisions made by officers at the poe or in the consulate abroad may be used for future cases.

 

Not having US passport by itself does not make US born person non-USC. But the other facts (applying for Indian passport, undertaking by parents, etc.) suggest intention by the parents to  apply for foreign citizenship for their child.

And then there is the vexing problem of foreign nationals (minor children) acquiring USC by default once their parents become USC which opens up paradox. You could argue that countries who strip their citizens of the citizenship once they acquire a foreign citizenship are somehow doing the wrong thing. I can argue for the other side.

 

We could certainly put this issue to rest. But the following issues are not resolved:

- everyone agrees that a person born in the US is USC at birth. The child's parents can apply for a foreign passport and not apply for US passport. After applying for foreign passport, it is not established if the child shall still remain USC.

- not established if the child will be denied entry to US just because s\he does not have a valid US passport.

- not established (through decisions of some consular officers) that the child will be denied a US visa.

- DOS may not force a USC minor to have a US passport while traveling abroad. S\he can have foreign passport.

- just as US govt allows minor children of naturalizing green card holders to acquire USC by default (ignoring that their native citizenship is lost without their voluntary consent), a USC minor can become naturalized citizen of some other country because the child's parents are native citizens of that country. Contradiction is that this naturalized citizen is not allowed to return to his\her place of birth in the US till s\he renounces its naturalized citizenship, get US passport.

[JoeF]

what if the parents just drive their US born child across a land border?

This way the child can show up at the US border without boarding a US bound plane.

There is not a good way for land POE to deny the entry to the USC to US soil. It is the birthright of the child to enter and leave as s\he pleases.

 

Case laws or precedents can be results of law suits. But also certain decisions made by officers at the poe or in the consulate abroad may be used for future cases.

 

Not having US passport by itself does not make US born person non-USC. But the other facts (applying for Indian passport, undertaking by parents, etc.) suggest intention by the parents to  apply for foreign citizenship for their child.

And then there is the vexing problem of foreign nationals (minor children) acquiring USC by default once their parents become USC which opens up paradox. You could argue that countries who strip their citizens of the citizenship once they acquire a foreign citizenship are somehow doing the wrong thing. I can argue for the other side.

 

We could certainly put this issue to rest. But the following issues are not resolved:

- everyone agrees that a person born in the US is USC at birth. The child's parents can apply for a foreign passport and not apply for US passport. After applying for foreign passport, it is not established if the child shall still remain USC.

- not established if the child will be denied entry to US just because s\he does not have a valid US passport.

- not established (through decisions of some consular officers) that the child will be denied a US visa.

- DOS may not force a USC minor to have a US passport while traveling abroad. S\he can have foreign passport.

- just as US govt allows minor children of naturalizing green card holders to acquire USC by default (ignoring that their native citizenship is lost without their voluntary consent), a USC minor can become naturalized citizen of some other country because the child's parents are native citizens of that country. Contradiction is that this naturalized citizen is not allowed to return to his\her place of birth in the US till s\he renounces its naturalized citizenship, get US passport.

 

Sigh. You really don't get it, do you?

Again, the child IS and REMAINS a US citizen! What part of that don't you understand???

A child born in the US IS a US citizen. No but or if!

How often do I need to repeat that???

A child born in the US IS a US citizen. Period!

A US citizen can NOT and WILL NOT get any US visa! Period.

It does NOT matter if the child has a foreign passport! The child STILL is a US citizen. The passport isn't the factor that decides citizenship. The PLACE OF BIRTH is!

The child CAN NOT and WILL NOT get a US visa. Get that into your head!

 

To repeat it once more: A child born in the US IS a US citizen. A US citizen can NOT get a US visa. Period. End of story. End of discussion!

Geez.

[JoeF]

what if the parents just drive their US born child across a land border?

This way the child can show up at the US border without boarding a US bound plane.

It is of course very interesting that you advocate breaking laws.

Shame on you for that.

[tusharvk]

It is of course very interesting that you advocate breaking laws.

Shame on you for that.

?

Are you saying that if someone arrives to the US POE by land border, that is breaking the law?

How so? Can you please elaborate?

[tusharvk]

By pasting the same text over and over, nothing gets proved.

There is difference between understanding the words in the written law and interpretation and practical understanding of the law.

This is what we pay the lawyers for.

If you could cite some anecdotes or real cases sought in my earlier post, please do so. The issues will remain unsettled till then.

It may make some uncomfortable; but that is the reality.

[JoeF]

By pasting the same text over and over, nothing gets proved.

There is NOTHInG to prove.

Get that into your head.

The US makes the laws for this country, and nobody else.

The US says that a child born in the US is a US citizen. Period. End of discussion.

If you don't like that, there's the door...

[tusharvk]

There is NOTHInG to prove.

only several unanswered questions and issues...