Immigration Reform

[Desi Dude]

I can't imagine why people still think that Dems are good for immigration. People have been fooled.

 

If the Dems haven't combined Legal Immigration reform with millions of illegals getting citizenship, we all would have received our GC by now.

 

You see, nobody is against improving the processing time and making it easier for Legal Immigrants, both Dems and Repubs. But since Dems combined illegals with legals, all the genuine hard working people are being screwed.

[catx]

I can't imagine why people still think that Dems are good for immigration. People have been fooled.

 

If the Dems haven't combined Legal Immigration reform with millions of illegals getting citizenship, we all would have received our GC by now.

 

You see, nobody is against improving the processing time and making it easier for Legal Immigrants, both Dems and Repubs. But since Dems combined illegals with legals, all the genuine hard working people are being screwed.

 

I have not always agreed with what you have written on this forum, but the quoted post is spot on.

 

For the Democrats (and all too many people in general) immigration reform equals / is all about addressing the issue of illegal immigration and providing relief, aka. benefits, for illegal immigrants.  Improving (reforming / fixing) the processes for those who follow the immigration laws, regulations, and rules and patiently wait in line for their visa(s), whether non-immigrant or immigrant permanent residency (green card) does not cross their mind / is not an issue.  This is a numbers and political influence game, pure and simple -- by all estimates there are 1,000,000s of illegal immigrants from a large group backed by many organizations and lobbying groups, and there are 10,000s of legal immigrants from many groups with fragmented, little, or no support groups.  Further, and probably most importantly, illegal immigrants indirectly have (a growing) voting influence, while legal immigrants do not have any real voting power, indirect or otherwise. 

 

With this said, I have not been against or opposed to reform for illegal immigrants as long as reform for legal immigrants comes along for the ride.  In other words, if it takes reform for illegal immigrants for there to be legislation for all immigrants so be it.  I believe and have stated on this forum that immigration reform is not about the benefits that would be provided to one group relative to the benefits that would be provided to another group, e.g. any apparent inequity.  It is a question of would you be better off / your situation be improved because of immigration reform, and not about someone else's situation.  Immigrants arguing with other immigrants about relative benefits ('fairness') is of no benefit to anyone.  At the end of the day immigration reform should -- must -- be "a rising tide that floats all boats".

 

Ironically, while Republicans have been standing in the way of immigration reform, they are more likely to prioritize improvements / fixes for legal immigrants over illegal immigrants.  Unfortunately, without reform for illegal immigrants the Democrats will not support it, and it would likely fail.

 

(As in the last few months leading up to the 2012 general election, look for a flurry of individual (e.g. piecemeal) immigration reform bills in the second half of next year leading up to the 2104 mid-term elections.)

[hornofgondor]

I can't imagine why people still think that Dems are good for immigration. People have been fooled.

 

If the Dems haven't combined Legal Immigration reform with millions of illegals getting citizenship, we all would have received our GC by now.

 

You see, nobody is against improving the processing time and making it easier for Legal Immigrants, both Dems and Repubs. But since Dems combined illegals with legals, all the genuine hard working people are being screwed.

 

Legal immigrants are not a significant electoral force at least as of now. So, understandably this does not create an incentive for politicans (either dems or repubs) to act on this groups interests. But, more importantly, I think your argument about dems screwing us is totally misguided. The repubs have been sitting on their hands from the time senate has passed the bill and are now saying that they don't have time. I think they don't have will. If you look at the history, repubs orchestrated the failure of the last immigration bill in 2007 when they had the senate and house majority and the presidency. Illegal immigration is a big issue which has to be dealt with ASAP. If it is not dealt now as part of a package it could lead to additional problems in the future for the country (eg. including rapid rise in the current illegal immigrant numbers). If your eventual plan is to be a citizen, you don't want your country to be worse off in this matter, right?

 

You really don't know what screwed is. Have you ever washed dishes from 10 am to 10 pm and received a paltry 20 bucks for your work. I think that could be categorized as screwed. My intention is not to pick a fight with you or belittle you (heck, I myself need immigration reform). I am just trying to impress upon you that there is a humane side to the argument on immigration reform which should not be oversighted. While I think it is important for the congress to address the issues of legal immigrants, I also think that they should address the issues faced by illegal immigrants. But, looking at the way the repubs are acting it may not happen

[Desi Dude]

You say you agree with me but then you say that illegals should be cared for with the legals. You are contradicting yourself.

 

As a legal immigrant, I am completely against any illegal activity. If I can come to US legally why can't the illegals? Why do you expect legals to have empathy for illegals, isn't that ironical?

 

Don't hide the truth, we legals need a bill completely independent of what happens to illegals. Dems want to club us together, that's an insult to us.

[hornofgondor]

You say you agree with me but then you say that illegals should be cared for with the legals. You are contradicting yourself.

 

As a legal immigrant, I am completely against any illegal activity. If I can come to US legally why can't the illegals? Why do you expect legals to have empathy for illegals, isn't that ironical?

 

Don't hide the truth, we legals need a bill completely independent of what happens to illegals. Dems want to club us together, that's an insult to us.

 

Legality is just a matter of perspective. If congress were to pass a bill making all illegal immigrants legal, they would all turn legal in a moment.

 

Illegal immigrants have come to the country with the same aspirations as legal immigrants, for a better future. You should also remember that a significant portion of illegal immigrants have once been legal entrants into the country (they overstayed their visa). Moreover, I am not in favor of illegal immigration. But, since a huge number of individuals are already here, setup businesses, raised families this issue should be dealt with in a humane way. Deporting all of them is neither feasible nor sensible as it will tear at the fabric of society. Finally, I think legality should not trump morality but should complement it.

[catx]

You say you agree with me but then you say that illegals should be cared for with the legals. You are contradicting yourself.

 

Re-reading my post, I can see where you might come away that impression, but that was not my point.

 

In principal I do not condone illegal immigration and immigration fraud (look at many of my other posts).  The U.S. is based on the rule of law.  That being said, for practical reasons I can 'hold my nose' / 'look the other way', if it takes immigration reform for illegal aliens to get immigration reform for legal aliens.  It is a case of judging immigration reform by what you would get, and not by what someone else would get.  Standing on principal and getting nothing is a zero sum game -- everyone losses including yourself.

[Desi Dude]

Legality is just a matter of perspective. If congress were to pass a bill making all illegal immigrants legal, they would all turn legal in a moment.

 

Illegal immigrants have come to the country with the same aspirations as legal immigrants, for a better future. You should also remember that a significant portion of illegal immigrants have once been legal entrants into the country (they overstayed their visa). Moreover, I am not in favor of illegal immigration. But, since a huge number of individuals are already here, setup businesses, raised families this issue should be dealt with in a humane way. Deporting all of them is neither feasible nor sensible as it will tear at the fabric of society. Finally, I think legality should not trump morality but should complement it.

 

Stop using emotions to support illegals. Please stick to the point I made - We need to separate legal reform with illegal reform. The politicians (Dems) want to club it together. The only way we get help is by segregating our cause with those who broke the laws. You are doing a disservice to all the people who have been waiting for 10yrs in the line by combining them with those who just jumped the fence and worked illegally. The only reason we had to wait years and years in line is because we did everything legally, we followed the laws, how in the world can you combine us with them?

[t75]

Applause, Desi Dude

[maverick41]

The biggest problem with some of us potential immigrants is that it's easy to divide us. It's easy to point fingers at the undocumented workers but the truth is they are not the ones who are making us (mainly the skilled workers)  wait longer in line. 

 

If anything, the issue of legalizing undocumented immigrants has created this new found love for legal immigration by some congress men- in my mind a PR stunt so that they don't appear xenophobic. Yes, I said it :) "xenophobic" because Congress does have a history of passing laws like the Chinese Exclusion Act- signed by President Chester Arthur a Republican. It took the Magnuson Act to repeal it (sponsored by a Democrat- Warren Magnuson) 

 

I also don't buy into the argument that the current crop of Republicans are all on board in solving the legal immigration fiasco. A case in point would be Senator Grassley blocking the passage of HR 3012 which dealt with skilled legal immigration- a bill that made perfect sense where immigrant visas would be allocated based on ones' education and work experience and not by country of origin. Then of course all hell broke loose with ROW countries being worried that they would have to wait in line. So you see the division among us played nicely into the hands of the politicians. The illegal worker was never a factor in all these discussions.

 

From a purely lobbying stand point (and in my case a moral standpoint) the issues with legal immigration will never get resolved without seeking the help of the those advocating for legalizing illegal immigrants. Honestly we (the legal workers) need them more than they need us to advance immigration reform. Voices that support finding a path to legalize illegal immigrants far outnumber and are more powerful than those asking for reform of legal immigration.

 

I live and work in the DC area and have had the chance to interact with both groups and I can tell you that working together is the only way out. I'm someone who is pragmatic and realize that all the components of comprehensive immigration may not happen and if it is piecemeal so be it. I for one will be rooting for Congress to pass a version of the previously introduced DREAM Act and the STEM bill.

 

 

 

[tusharvk]

interesting discussion. I only had the opportunity to read a few very recent posts in this thread.

 

Whether legals need illegals or vice versa for immigration reform to materialize:

well during 07-08 period again a lot of talk and discussion on reforming the system. nothing happened (illegals got nothing). But legals got 20 month opt, masters degree h1b quota, etc.  Coming back to 2012-13 President Obama gave DACA to illegals. But pretty much nothing else happened. Congress is divided whether to go ahead with the CIR and may be piecemeal reform will happen to benefit legals. Even allowing 485 filing without pd being current can be a step forward for legals. H4 spouse EAD is in the works already.

 

It is not that legals can not be a lobby group. More important is whether business needs to keep legals around. Then, these companies will lobby and legal reform (piecemeal of course) will happen as needed. 

 

I do not like some provisions in the senate's CIR for legals; may be for good that it is not even being allowed to get voted in congress.

[Desi Dude]

interesting discussion. I only had the opportunity to read a few very recent posts in this thread.

 

Whether legals need illegals or vice versa for immigration reform to materialize:

well during 07-08 period again a lot of talk and discussion on reforming the system. nothing happened (illegals got nothing). But legals got 20 month opt, masters degree h1b quota, etc.  Coming back to 2012-13 President Obama gave DACA to illegals. But pretty much nothing else happened. Congress is divided whether to go ahead with the CIR and may be piecemeal reform will happen to benefit legals. Even allowing 485 filing without pd being current can be a step forward for legals. H4 spouse EAD is in the works already.

 

It is not that legals can not be a lobby group. More important is whether business needs to keep legals around. Then, these companies will lobby and legal reform (piecemeal of course) will happen as needed. 

 

I do not like some provisions in the senate's CIR for legals; may be for good that it is not even being allowed to get voted in congress.

 

Just the fact that you are comparing legals with illegals is insulting. You said 'legals got something, illegals got nothing'. How is it related? Legals did it the way it is described by the law, thats why they got something. Nobody is stopping illegals to do it the right way. Stop making excuse for them.

[maverick41]

So here are a few things going on in my neck of the woods:

 

Three immigrant advocates on a hunger strike to pressure lawmakers to change the country’s immigration system ended their three-week fast Tuesday on the National Mall, while a new group of fasters including U.S. Rep. Joseph Kennedy III took their place. About half a dozen Congress members, including House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, were there as the fasters left the tent Tuesday. Minnesota Democratic U.S. Reps. Keith Ellison and Betty McCollum began one-day solidarity fasts with the activists.

(Fast 4 families dot org, fast4families.org) 

 

On Monday, young immigrants from Florida, North Carolina and Texas arrived in Washington, D.C., to push for immigration reform. They delivered letters to lawmakers’ offices describing the impact that the deportations of their parents and other family members had on them. They held a press conference to argue for reform and staged a skit that starred “Grinch Boehner,” after the House Speaker John Boehner, and blamed him for tearing families apart.

(Fox News, Boston Herald) 

[tusharvk]

Just the fact that you are comparing legals with illegals is insulting. You said 'legals got something, illegals got nothing'. How is it related? Legals did it the way it is described by the law, thats why they got something. Nobody is stopping illegals to do it the right way. Stop making excuse for them.

 

You are wrongly criticizing me. Where did I make excuse for illegals? I said that illegals are not getting anything through admin actions\piecemeal legislation and hence need CIR; legals on the other hand got something out of admin action.

[maverick41]

Well its a new year and time to revive this thread :)

 

1/21/2014

In meetings with immigration reform advocates, White House officials have said President Barack Obama won't threaten to take unilateral executive action (at least not yet) and that he wants to gibe House Republicans some breathing room to try and pass legislation this year.

(Source: Politico)

 

 

 

[Desi Dude]

Just heard SOTU, no immigration reform this year. Legals will be clubbed with illegals while EB1s skip the line.

[maverick41]

The House Republicans are meeting in Cambridge, MD this week (the retreat ends today/Jan 31)

 

From the NY Times, here's the House GOP blueprint for immigration overhaul:

 

1) Border Security and Interior Enforcement Must Come First

It is the fundamental duty of any government to secure its borders, and the United States is failing in this mission. We must secure our borders now and verify that they are secure. In addition, we must ensure now that when immigration reform is enacted, there will be a zero tolerance policy for those who cross the border illegally or overstay their visas in the future. Faced with a consistent pattern of administrations of both parties only selectively enforcing our nation’s immigration laws, we must enact reform that ensures that a President cannot unilaterally stop immigration enforcement.

 

2) Implement Entry-Exit Visa Tracking System

A fully functioning Entry-Exit system has been mandated by eight separate statutes over the last 17 years. At least three of these laws call for this system to be biometric, using technology to verify identity and prevent fraud. We must implement this system so we can identify and track down visitors who abuse our laws.

 

3) Employment Verification and Workplace Enforcement

In the 21st century it is unacceptable that the majority of employees have their work eligibility verified through a paper based system wrought with fraud. It is past time for this country to fully implement a workable electronic employment verification system.

 

3) Reforms to the Legal Immigration System

For far too long, the United States has emphasized extended family members and pure luck over employment-based immigration. This is inconsistent with nearly every other developed country. Every year thousands of foreign nationals pursue degrees at America’s colleges and universities, particularly in high skilled fields. Many of them want to use their expertise in U.S. industries that will spur economic growth and create jobs for Americans. When visas aren’t available, we end up exporting this labor and ingenuity to other countries. Visa and green card allocations need to reflect the needs of employers and the desire for these exceptional individuals to help grow our economy.

 

The goal of any temporary worker program should be to address the economic needs of the country and to strengthen our national security by allowing for realistic, enforceable, usable, legal paths for entry into the United States. Of particular concern are the needs of the agricultural industry, among others. It is imperative that these temporary workers are able to meet the economic needs of the country and do not displace or disadvantage American workers.

 

4) Youth

One of the great founding principles of our country was that children would not be punished for the mistakes of their parents. It is time to provide an opportunity for legal residence and citizenship for those who were brought to this country as children through no fault of their own, those who know no other place as home. For those who meet certain eligibility standards, and serve honorably in our military or attain a college degree, we will do just that.

 

5) Individuals Living Outside the Rule of Law

Our national and economic security depend on requiring people who are living and working here illegally to come forward and get right with the law. There will be no special path to citizenship for individuals who broke our nation’s immigration laws – that would be unfair to those immigrants who have played by the rules and harmful to promoting the rule of law. Rather, these persons could live legally and without fear in the U.S., but only if they were willing to admit their culpability, pass rigorous background checks, pay significant fines and back taxes, develop proficiency in English and American civics, and be able to support themselves and their families (without access to public benefits). Criminal aliens, gang members, and sex offenders and those who do not meet the above requirements will not be eligible for this program.

 

Finally, none of this can happen before specific enforcement triggers have been implemented to fulfill our promise to the American people that from here on, our immigration laws will indeed be enforced.

[Desi Dude]

An article in NY Times on Feb 8 said that millions of Legal immigrants would have to wait longer because of the Executive Order passed by Obama to process young Illegals first.

 

As I have been propagating, combining legals with illegals in comprehensive immigration reform would only hurt legals who have been waiting for years.

[rahul412]

An article in NY Times on Feb 8 said that millions of Legal immigrants would have to wait longer because of the Executive Order passed by Obama to process young Illegals first.

If this is true then I am completely against this reform.

[maverick41]

Are you talking about the 2012 executive order? That was a temporary measure to stop deportation of young adults' who graduated from a U.S. high school or served in the military, have no criminal record,younger than 30 and have been brought to the U.S. under the age of 16, “by no fault of their own". So I'm not sure what that has got to do with delaying the legal immigration process for people like us going through the EB green card process.

In any case we are all in this together. The proposed immigration reform will help all of us and dividing us into groups is not going to help.

[rahul412]

Are you talking about the 2012 executive order? That was a temporary measure to stop deportation of young adults' who graduated from a U.S. high school or served in the military, have no criminal record,younger than 30 and have been brought to the U.S. under the age of 16, “by no fault of their own". So I'm not sure what that has got to do with delaying the legal immigration process for people like us going through the EB green card process.

In any case we are all in this together. The proposed immigration reform will help all of us and dividing us into groups is not going to help.

So, is that true that this is one of the reasons for EB2 retrogression?

[catx]

An article in NY Times on Feb 8 said that millions of Legal immigrants would have to wait longer because of the Executive Order passed by Obama to process young Illegals first.

 

It took a little bit of searching, but for reference the New York Times article in question is titled "Program Benefiting Some Immigrants Extends Visa Wait for Others" by Julia Preston, dated Feb. 8, 2014.

 

Admittedly Desi Dude appears to have a point in his "propaganda" this time.  The article is not just an opinion, but sites and quotes statements from the USCIS.

 

The counterpoints are that President Obama's DACA executive order is not immigration reform (comprehensive or otherwise).  It is at best a temporary measure. Further, It only adds to the patchwork of often times conflicting U.S. immigration laws, regulations, and rules and further exasperates the "broken immigration system", and the USCIS did not have time to implement it in a coordinated way.  If Congress ever passes immigration reform(s), then the USCIS would have time to plan for the changes and implement them in a coordinated way.  In fact, the DHS has recently formed an immigration reform implementation team to prepare plans for implementing possible immigration reform.  Also, immigration reform, if it ever comes to pass, will likely be in a series of bills versus one massive comprehensive bill, as the House Republicans (leadership) have presented in the GOP "principles", in which border security and reform for legal aliens would precede reform for illegal immigrants.  (If you look at the immigration reform bills and proposals in Congress, then you will see that reform for legal aliens would be implemented from the beginning, and reform for illegal aliens would be implementation after conditions and criteria ("triggers") are met.)  Lastly, it is folly to think that immigration reform for legal aliens can be completely separated from immigration reform for illegal aliens.

[catx]

So, is that true that this is one of the reasons for EB2 retrogression?

 

Absolutely not.

 

Regression of cutoff dates in the Department of State monthly "Visa Bulletin" is due to increases in demand for permanent residency visas in a particular preference category (such as EB2 India) relative to the number of visas available in the annual quota and allocation.

 

The issues described in the article in question are regarding processing time after an immigration application has been filed with the USCIS.

[rahul412]

Absolutely not.

 

Regression of cutoff dates in the Department of State monthly "Visa Bulletin" is due to increases in demand for permanent residency visas in a particular preference category (such as EB2 India) relative to the number of visas available in the annual quota and allocation.

 

The issues described in the article in question are regarding processing time after an immigration application has been filed with the USCIS.

Catx, do you know how this EB cut off dates in the bulletin are calculated??

[Desi Dude]

Are you talking about the 2012 executive order? That was a temporary measure to stop deportation of young adults' who graduated from a U.S. high school or served in the military, have no criminal record,younger than 30 and have been brought to the U.S. under the age of 16, “by no fault of their own". So I'm not sure what that has got to do with delaying the legal immigration process for people like us going through the EB green card process.

In any case we are all in this together. The proposed immigration reform will help all of us and dividing us into groups is not going to help.

 

 

NO we all are not in this together. Legals are educated skilled people who abide by the law and have been waiting for years. I don't know about you but most of us came in this country legally and worked hard. Please don't insult us by downplaying that all are immigrants. Our goals might be same but our means are exactly opposite. It's like saying a Bank Robber and a Bank clerk should be treated same coz they have the same goal - to earn money. One is earning money legally and the other illegally. Do you get the difference?

[maverick41]

I can completely understand your frustration but blaming the undocumented workers for the mess is not the solution. I came here on a student visa 14 years ago and now on H1 status with my green card being processed on an EB2. Yes I followed the rules and realize the system is not fair especially to Indian born EB green card applicants who have to wait the longest- EB2 PD 2004 and EB3 PD 2003. The dates are just insane when you compare it to the rest of the world including China (EB3 2012).

 

That being said, what can we do? I'm a doctor and not an engineer or in the IT world so should I blame all my fellow Indian IT counterparts for the mess? Why even have a country based quota for employment based immigration when a company or organization hires you based on your skills and your education. The undocumented workers have nothing to do with EB green card process. Honestly if anything the issue to reform immigration for undocumented workers and unite families has highlighted the need to reform employment based immigration (implementing a point based system).