Is day trading legal or illegal on H1B status...

[JoeF]

I suggest you learn how online trading is done. ANY online trading , including those for long term investment, CAN be done with same setting. Bottomline, Stock buying and selling are done in the EXACT same location, in the EXACT same way no matter you buy and sell on same day or buy today and sell after an year.

So, you do online trading while at work, when you should be working???

That would be grounds for immediate termination.

The bottom line is that you can not do day trading on H1, because it is work. Even if you don't like to hear it, it still is work.

[Attorney_23]

To the best of my knowledge, immigration officials have never specifically addressed whether day trading is considered "work". But, we know from the regulations that making passive investments is permitted, but "work" is not. So, where does day trading fall on this scale?

It is a bit of a grey area, as this is not a standard 'job,' but I suspect immigration officials would consider day trading to be a status violation. Now, when I say 'day trading,' I am thinking of the a who spends hours in front of h/er computer, buying and selling stocks. There likely would not be a bright-line rule for immigration purposes dictating specifically how many trades a person can make before it crosses the line of being a passive investor over to being 'work.' (i.e. the fact that other regulations may define how many trades it takes to be classified as a 'day trader' may be deemed irrelevant for immigration purposes.) But, if a person is spending hours on end on an activity with the intent of making a profit, I believe it may prove difficult to argue that such an activity is truly a passive investment.

But, again, there is no definitive answer here. The government could theoretically interpret the regulations differently. (But, the fact that the regulations do not specifically prohibit this behavior would not serve to generally protect a foreign national who attempts to engage in such conduct.)

[chakrakr]

To the best of my knowledge, immigration officials have never specifically addressed whether day trading is considered "work". But, we know from the regulations that making passive investments is permitted, but "work" is not. So, where does day trading fall on this scale?

It is a bit of a grey area, as this is not a standard 'job,' but I suspect immigration officials would consider day trading to be a status violation. Now, when I say 'day trading,' I am thinking of the a who spends hours in front of h/er computer, buying and selling stocks. There likely would not be a bright-line rule for immigration purposes dictating specifically how many trades a person can make before it crosses the line of being a passive investor over to being 'work.' (i.e. the fact that other regulations may define how many trades it takes to be classified as a 'day trader' may be deemed irrelevant for immigration purposes.) But, if a person is spending hours on end on an activity with the intent of making a profit, I believe it may prove difficult to argue that such an activity is truly a passive investment.

But, again, there is no definitive answer here. The government could theoretically interpret the regulations differently. (But, the fact that the regulations do not specifically prohibit this behavior would not serve to generally protect a foreign national who attempts to engage in such conduct.)

Thank you for joining the discussion. After reading a lot of Attorney views including your one, it is my understanding that soemone who engages in occassional day trade is not violating the H1 (or H4) status. What you mentioned is right -- spending hours in the activity. But would that prohibit A day trade (say) once a week ? I guess no. Since you have access , is there any case law one way or the other ?

[JoeF]

Thank you for joining the discussion. After reading a lot of Attorney views including your one, it is my understanding that soemone who engages in occassional day trade is not violating the H1 (or H4) status.

"occasional day trading"... That's a contradiction in terms.

Day trading is work, because it isn't casual investing.

[Attorney_23]

Thank you for joining the discussion. After reading a lot of Attorney views including your one, it is my understanding that soemone who engages in occassional day trade is not violating the H1 (or H4) status. What you mentioned is right -- spending hours in the activity. But would that prohibit A day trade (say) once a week ? I guess no. Since you have access , is there any case law one way or the other ?

Again, there's no specific regulations on this. But, buying/selling one stock per week? I think the foreign national could make a strong argument that this amounts to nothing more than passive investment.

[cap-gap]

Again, there's no specific regulations on this. But, buying/selling one stock per week? I think the foreign national could make a strong argument that this amounts to nothing more than passive investment.

referring to the post#21 , it seems that the dis-agreement b/n two users is around the word "day trade" literally- as in a stock trade performed literally during working hours, M-F: 8-5, where H1 is supposed to work..

[JoeF]

Again, there's no specific regulations on this. But, buying/selling one stock per week? I think the foreign national could make a strong argument that this amounts to nothing more than passive investment.

Obviously, that is not what day trading refers to. That is casual trading, which is not a problem.

[catx]

... the fact that the regulations do not specifically prohibit this behavior would not serve to generally protect a foreign national who attempts to engage in such conduct.

Attorney_25 thank you for responding to this discussion. The above statement is key to discussions such as this one. In other words, something does not have to be explicitly spelled out in the laws and regulations to be nonetheless valid. It is important to remember that the U.S. is a common law system, which is based on case law and precedence, where the applicable law is developed through practice and legal decisions, versus a statue law system, which is based on the written laws, where the applicable law is explicitly written down and codified for use. This comes back to Attorney_25's point that under common law something does not have to be written down in the laws and regulations to be valid and binding.

In terms of this discussion, the central question is what is active "day trading" versus passive investing. There is a general understanding and interpretation that "day trading" infers an active, regular, on-going, activity, and a portion of the money (profit) is often taken out of the market (trading accounts) for other purposes. Whereas passive investing involves less frequent trading (even with an online brokerage account, buy and sell orders, participating in a stock trading club), and the money is typically kept in the market and reinvested in other stocks.

[cap-gap]

In terms of this discussion, the central question is what is active "day trading" versus passive investing.

a day trading is not just investing and go to sleep, it involves buying and selling with in the SAME DAY..

and anybody experienced in "day trading" knows that "the trade" will not involve a random buying & selling..and it generallly involves to buying &selling "volume" of shares(&money) when that "instant" appears..involves staring at those fluctuating graphs for hours at a time just make the "call"..

[chakrakr]

Obviously, that is not what day trading refers to. That is casual trading, which is not a problem.

Good we finally agree.

In Post 3, the poster specifically mentioned "One can do 3 day trades over a period of 5 calender days" . While all agree that spending hours in day trading violates H1, spending a couple of minutes a week is not a problem even if it is "day trade".

[chakrakr]

"occasional day trading"... That's a contradiction in terms.

Day trading is work, because it isn't casual investing.

There is NO contradiction . "Day trade" means buying and selling a stock on Same Day. You can do it occassinally (and then you will not be a pattern day trader) OR you can do it very frequently.

[chakrakr]

So, you do online trading while at work, when you should be working???

That would be grounds for immediate termination.

Again, A day trade takes couple of minutes. Things are automated now a days .... any trade - day OR long term can be automated.

[JoeF]

Attorney_25 thank you for responding to this discussion. The above statement is key to discussions such as this one. In other words, something does not have to be explicitly spelled out in the laws and regulations to be nonetheless valid. It is important to remember that the U.S. is a common law system, which is based on case law and precedence, where the applicable law is developed through practice and legal decisions, versus a statue law system, which is based on the written laws, where the applicable law is explicitly written down and codified for use. This comes back to Attorney_25's point that under common law something does not have to be written down in the laws and regulations to be valid and binding.

Which is, btw, what I have been saying in this thread and others, whenever a particular other person posts his "show me the law" litany, indicating that that person doesn't understand the US legal system.

In terms of this discussion, the central question is what is active "day trading" versus passive investing. There is a general understanding and interpretation that "day trading" infers an active, regular, on-going, activity, and a portion of the money (profit) is often taken out of the market (trading accounts) for other purposes. Whereas passive investing involves less frequent trading (even with an online brokerage account, buy and sell orders, participating in a stock trading club), and the money is typically kept in the market and reinvested in other stocks.

Again, fully agreed.

[catx]

Which is, btw, what I have been saying in this thread and others, whenever a particular other person posts his "show me the law" litany, indicating that that person doesn't understand the US legal system.

I concur and appreciate that you had made many (many) posts to that effect. I thought that Attorney_25's post was a good opportunity to drive home the point, and reinforce it by referencing that it is based on the U.S. being a common law system.

[chakrakr]

Which is, btw, what I have been saying in this thread and others, whenever a particular other person posts his "show me the law" litany, indicating that that person doesn't understand the US legal system.

Cherry picking one point from Attorney's post does not help the case. While even an Attorney has doubts on how much of Day Trading can be allowed, you have posted as a final verdict "Day trading is NOT allowed on H1. Period. End of story." . This shows , you had NO CLUE that some Day Trading is OK on H1. This is in fact not the first discussion on this point. There have been discussions earlier and your point have always been even a single Day Trade is prohibited. You have never used any qualifier. While I and some others have maintained that infrequent Day Trade is OK which you seem to agree now.

That is all this is about.

[chakrakr]

There is NO contradiction . "Day trade" means buying and selling a stock on Same Day. You can do it occassinally (and then you will not be a pattern day trader) OR you can do it very frequently.

Forgot the qualifier --- you can do it occassionally on H1 but not regularly .... the fact is Day Trade means buying and selling stocks on same day.

[chakrakr]

a day trading is not just investing and go to sleep, it involves buying and selling with in the SAME DAY..

and anybody experienced in "day trading" knows that "the trade" will not involve a random buying & selling..and it generallly involves to buying &selling "volume" of shares(&money) when that "instant" appears..involves staring at those fluctuating graphs for hours at a time just make the "call"..

Things can be automated now a days. Check a good brokerage account.

[cap-gap]

Things can be automated now a days. Check a good brokerage account.

no offense..but have you done any "day trading"?

because it is absolutely senseless to do automated "day trade", bcz it is the nature of the beast..