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jsars

Wife sponsoring In-Law's Visitor Visa - Urgent

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Hello,

My wife is on H1-B and working in a US Firm as a Full Term Employee. We both have been in US for last 4 years. Earlier I was on L1-B and my visa Extension application got rejected, so I recently came back on H4.

Now, we want to sponsor my Parent's Visitor Visa urgently.

Q1: Do you think if my Wife sponsors them, they will have less chances of Approval?

Another thing is I am going to start my job on H1-B by next week but the problems are:

1. I do not have enough funds in my Account as I transferred major chunk to India before leaving from USA. But my wife has good Amount in her a/c.

2. USCIS asks for 3-4 months of Pay Stubs but I will not be having any paystubs immediately after starting. At the same time we can not delay this process as my wife has just delivered and we need somebody here in USA.

So in all possibilities, my wife has all the Documents required for Visitor Visa sponsorship.

Q2. Do you think we should wait for at least 1 month and I sponsor them instead of my wife sponsoring them. But I will not have all the 3 months paystubs.

Please suggest how should we do it?

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Guest Noah Lotte

there is no such thing as 'sponsorship' for tourist visa applicants....and, as a reminder, one that has been posted here numerous times, providing 'urgent' childcare (because you are apparently about to return to the workplace) is NOT an authorized activity for B2 visa holders.....repeat...providing child care is consider WORK, and work is NOT allowed when somebody arrives in the US as a tourist...it does not matter whether the tourists are your relatives, whether you pay them in cash or not....no doctor's letter overrides our laws...no senator or congressman can force a VO to ignore our rules on your behalf...you will need to hire a nanny or something equivalent, to look after your children when you go back to work. Now, if you claim this is not the 'urgent' purpose of their visa request, then what else is there? The Grand Canyon is not closing soon, nor Mt, Rushmore.....

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There is nothing "urgent" about a visitors visa - unless you need them to babysit illegally while you both work.

Either of you can submit the documentation but do NOT have them come if they intend to violate US laws by working in your home.

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Guest Noah Lotte

No, she cannot....there is no such thing as 'sponsorship' for tourist visas....check the INA...

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Noah Lotte.

I disagree. what if a woman who is from the EU, Australia, NZ or Japan where there is a visa free travel has deivered? what if she wants her mom/in-law to come and babysit. Is that ok? I would say yes. and Why is that? simply because all she is told at Border control is, "Welcome to the US" and not a question more. so if her mom/in-law can come and babysit her grandkid why can't a similar person come from a visa country and not be able to do the same.

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Noah Lotte.

I disagree. what if a woman who is from the EU, Australia, NZ or Japan where there is a visa free travel has deivered? what if she wants her mom/in-law to come and babysit. Is that ok? I would say yes. and Why is that? simply because all she is told at Border control is, "Welcome to the US" and not a question more. so if her mom/in-law can come and babysit her grandkid why can't a similar person come from a visa country and not be able to do the same.

even citizens of those countries cannot work (babysit) here when they are visiting.

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Guest Noah Lotte

Because if said VWP traveler arrived at the POE and announced 'I'm here to babysit so my son/daughter can go back to work..'. said traveler would be shipped home on the next flight....work = work...period. Child care is work...if you doubt this, then why do so many visa holders try to get their parents or in-laws to the US to babysit? TO SAVE MONEY. Case closed.

Child care, as many people know, is not free...bringing relatives over to do the job is no different than bringing relatives over to pick fruit or vegetables, run a store or pump gas....all of these activities are work, and people performing said work are routinely compensated for their time...tell you what....peruse the Immigration & Nationality Act, go the section under B2 visas, and find the exception to the rule about working in the US, as it pertains to providing child care for relatives...(then ask yourself why au pairs need a J1 visa to do the very same activity...and for compensation)...it does not matter if said relative wants to 'volunteer' to carry out any sort of work...because in the act of doing so, that person deprives an American citizen, LPR or authorized J1 visa holder of doing that job...and that is NOT allowed for B2 visa holders....I await the results of your investigation and review of the INA to refute what I just wrote....

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You have 3 choices.

1. Hire a babysitter.

2. If you want grandma to care for your child, go home where she can do it legally.

3. One of you stay home with the child.

Why do you think that as a GUEST worker that you can violate the rules governing all others in the US? Guests like you two are not needed; manyy others will come and work 100% legally.

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Yes..that is IF they announce that they are here to babysit then obviously they will be on the return flight back home...but who in their senses from a visa free country WILL actually tell the truth that they're here to babysit....You're talking as if the USCIS will contact the NSA and the CIA to follow the track of every grandma /granddad to see if they are actually 'visiting' or babysitting their grandkid....comon ..please be reasonable..

you probably drive daily in a 35/hr zone but do you actually stay at 35 or less...rules are there everywhere but in all probability do you follow each and every one of them...even a cop will not pull you over if he/she knows you're 5 over...

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Jsars did not say that he wishes for his parents to visit the U.S. in order for them to babysit or care for his children. Please be mindful that the MurthyForum is intended to be a source of helpful information for the immigrant community; not a board to judge people.

Secondly, the idea that coming to the U.S. to meet/spend time with your grandchildren equates to unlawful employment as a daycare provider is, at best, a grey area of the law. I understand that some consular officers take this position. However, I find very little to support for this contention in the relevant laws and regulations.

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Jsars did not say that he wishes for his parents to visit the U.S. in order for them to babysit or care for his children. Please be mindful that the MurthyForum is intended to be a source of helpful information for the immigrant community; not a board to judge people.

Secondly, the idea that coming to the U.S. to meet/spend time with your grandchildren equates to unlawful employment as a daycare provider is, at best, a grey area of the law. I understand that some consular officers take this position. However, I find very little to support for this contention in the relevant laws and regulations.

Thank you Attorney. I have been noticing some member just start throwing bricks the moment they see a question on Visitor visa for parents/in-laws/siblings.

As for "helping during pregnancy", we have seen in this very forum people getting B1 after mentioning that they will attend to pregnant daughter/in-law.

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Guest Noah Lotte

The caption of the OP's posting, using the word 'urgent', combined with the fact that the OP stated he is going back to work soon, strongly suggest that the 'urgency' relates to child care, not having to go to Disneyland before Space Mountain closes. He did not mention any pending serious surgeries, for example, nor any other crisis that might (might) merit an 'urgent' visa issuance to a close relative...ordinary visiting is not urgent...ordinary child care is expensive. Any activity which a B2 visitor performs that could be done by someone else for money is considered work...which is why B2 visa holders cannot 'volunteer' to be an intern in some office, sharpening pencils or making coffee or answering the phone...there is no listed exception in the INA regarding relatives being granted special dispensation to come and provide full time child care so their adult children can return to the work place and avoid having to pay a nanny. Yes, it is a grey area because of conflicting decision making and policy by DHS and DoS...but...more people are sent home when they admit to having either provided child care during their last 6 month visit (which likely ended two weeks prior) or during their one year extension than are admitted if they actually revealed their true intent when they arrived at the POE. If an applicant stated childcare as the purpose of their visit, their visa request would be denied 99.99% of the time. Work is, after all, work. The simple way to look at this situation is this: if the parent or in-law wasn't there to babysit, another party would have to be hired to do the same task...hence, babysitting = work.

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Noah Lotte , read the following posts. You will learn a thing or two about Visitor Visa --

http://forum.murthy.com/index.php?/topic/34579-pregnancy-question-in-visitor-visa-interview/page__st__20 (An Attorney says "The key to this issue seems to be that they view it as ok to come help/support a daughter immediately before/after having a baby.") If you don't like the Attorney's words go argue with her -- don't shoot the messenger.

http://forum.murthy.com/index.php?/topic/32292-moms-visa-interviewb2-in-hyderabad-222f-query/page__p__131081__fromsearch__1#entry131081 (someone got Visitor Visa after mentioning that the daughter is pregnant)

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Any activity which a B2 visitor performs that could be done by someone else for money is considered work...

This is simply incorrect. There are a great number of activities that people in B2 status can legally perform that could otherwise by done by someone else for money. Working as a traditional nanny certainly is not one of those activities. But, there is an obvious distinction between hiring a nanny and a person spending time with her new grandchild for the first time.

there is no listed exception in the INA regarding relatives being granted special dispensation to come and provide full time child care so their adult children can return to the work place and avoid having to pay a nanny.

The entire INA barely mentions the B1/B2 classification, and certainly does not spell out the various activities which are specifically prohibited or permitted. The relevant regulations and guidelines which discuss B1/B2 classification in greater depth provide relevant examples of permitted and prohibited activities. They do not specifically touch on this issue, but they do provide situations where such conduct would almost certainly be allowed, and even expected -- for instance, if his elderly mother was a member of his household overseas, she would be permitted to enter as a B-2, and would even have the opportunity to request admission for a full year, rather than the standard six months. As far as I am aware, the government has never contended that in that situation the family member would be allowed to live year-round in the home, but be prohibited from caring from her grandchild who lived within the same home. The argument seems nearly as strong in the case for a standard B-2.

Yes, it is a grey area because of conflicting decision making and policy by DHS and DoS...but...more people are sent home when they admit to having either provided child care during their last 6 month visit (which likely ended two weeks prior) or during their one year extension than are admitted if they actually revealed their true intent when they arrived at the POE. If an applicant stated childcare as the purpose of their visit, their visa request would be denied 99.99% of the time.

No, it is a grey area because the agents primarily in charge of enforcing provisions in the U.S. related to unlawful employment are not part of the same entity as those who issue visas or turn away foreign nationals at the port of entry. I have yet to hear of a single foreign national in the U.S. being charged with participating in unlawful employment based on taking care of a grandchild.

Work is, after all, work. The simple way to look at this situation is this: if the parent or in-law wasn't there to babysit, another party would have to be hired to do the same task...hence, babysitting = work.

Under immigration, 'work' is most certainly not 'work'. And, I dare say that no babysitter could be hired to perform the same task, which would be having the child spend time with h/er grandmother.

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No, it is a grey area because the agents primarily in charge of enforcing provisions in the U.S. related to unlawful employment are not part of the same entity as those who issue visas or turn away foreign nationals at the port of entry. I have yet to hear of a single foreign national in the U.S. being charged with participating in unlawful employment based on taking care of a grandchild.

Well, I can't post the link here, because it goes to the Usenet archive on Google Groups, but let me copy some of the text here. This is from a post to the Usenet group alt.visa.us, posted there on 12/15/2003:

"My mother has a 10 year B2 visitor visa. She has been travelling to US for

last 4 years, each time granted 6 months of stay and staying the full 6

months. Only in 2001 she was permitted 3 months at the entry and she

succesfully got a 6 months extension by finiling I-539.

In 2003 she got a 6 month I-94 valid until Sept 22, she applied for

extension on Aug 6 and got an acknowledgement by end of august. She stated

her reason of stay as "need to take care of pregnant daughter and expected

grand child" and requested 6 months extensin until March 22, '04. INS has

sent a rejection letter (dated 11/16/03) stating "employment" as motive of

extension, even if it is with a relative and considered the staty illegal.

The I-539 filed clearly stated that she is being fully supported financially

by her son (myself) for all her stay."

Most people in that situation probably don't ask for help on forums. But that doesn't mean that such situations don't happen.

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Hello,

My wife is on H1-B and working in a US Firm as a Full Term Employee. We both have been in US for last 4 years. Earlier I was on L1-B and my visa Extension application got rejected, so I recently came back on H4.

Now, we want to sponsor my Parent's Visitor Visa urgently.

Q1: Do you think if my Wife sponsors them, they will have less chances of Approval?

Another thing is I am going to start my job on H1-B by next week but the problems are:

1. I do not have enough funds in my Account as I transferred major chunk to India before leaving from USA. But my wife has good Amount in her a/c.

2. USCIS asks for 3-4 months of Pay Stubs but I will not be having any paystubs immediately after starting. At the same time we can not delay this process as my wife has just delivered and we need somebody here in USA.

So in all possibilities, my wife has all the Documents required for Visitor Visa sponsorship.

Q2. Do you think we should wait for at least 1 month and I sponsor them instead of my wife sponsoring them. But I will not have all the 3 months paystubs.

Please suggest how should we do it?

I believe that the highlighted passages indicate the reason for the visa. They certainly do look like they need grandparents to babysit.

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And also, for a grandparent to visit a grandchild has no urgency; they can come at any time. While it would be nice to visit with a newborn, it is not essential. If it were, the delivery would have occurred closer to the grandparents home. Recall, OP stated the need for the visa was URGENT.

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Guest Noah Lotte

from the INA, regarding non immigrants under section B (for B1/B2 visa holders) are described as: "(B) an alien (other than one coming for the purpose of study or of performing skilled or unskilled labor or as a representative of foreign press, radio, film, or other foreign information media coming to engage in such vocation) having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning and who is visiting the United States temporarily for business or temporarily for pleasure;

...'other than one coming for the purpose of study or of performing skilled or unskilled labor....".....I see no exception for relatives coming to perform the relatively unskilled labor of childcare....

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Well, I can't post the link here, because it goes to the Usenet archive on Google Groups, but let me copy some of the text here. This is from a post to the Usenet group alt.visa.us, posted there on 12/15/2003:

"My mother has a 10 year B2 visitor visa. She has been travelling to US for

last 4 years, each time granted 6 months of stay and staying the full 6

months. Only in 2001 she was permitted 3 months at the entry and she

succesfully got a 6 months extension by finiling I-539.

In 2003 she got a 6 month I-94 valid until Sept 22, she applied for

extension on Aug 6 and got an acknowledgement by end of august. She stated

her reason of stay as "need to take care of pregnant daughter and expected

grand child" and requested 6 months extensin until March 22, '04. INS has

sent a rejection letter (dated 11/16/03) stating "employment" as motive of

extension, even if it is with a relative and considered the staty illegal.

The I-539 filed clearly stated that she is being fully supported financially

by her son (myself) for all her stay."

Most people in that situation probably don't ask for help on forums. But that doesn't mean that such situations don't happen.

We have been seeing this ONE SINGLE Decade old case but is there anything else?

Note that in this case, the person already had problem when she was granted a shorter stay apparently because of multiple visits in a short span.

In fact , we have more cases mentioned in this forum where people got Visa even after mentioning about child's pregnancy.

We have definitely heard tons more cases where Different types of applications are denied in error. For many cases , there are options for MTR/Appeal and so Attorneys can successfully reverse the erronous decision. For B1/B2 , there is no provision of appeal, so even if it is an error, there is no way to reverse it.

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"My mother has a 10 year B2 visitor visa. She has been travelling to US for

last 4 years, each time granted 6 months of stay and staying the full 6

months. Only in 2001 she was permitted 3 months at the entry and she

succesfully got a 6 months extension by finiling I-539.

In 2003 she got a 6 month I-94 valid until Sept 22, she applied for

extension on Aug 6 and got an acknowledgement by end of august. She stated

her reason of stay as "need to take care of pregnant daughter and expected

grand child" and requested 6 months extensin until March 22, '04. INS has

sent a rejection letter (dated 11/16/03) stating "employment" as motive of

extension, even if it is with a relative and considered the staty illegal.

The I-539 filed clearly stated that she is being fully supported financially

by her son (myself) for all her stay."

I would agree that a relative who has spent twenty-four of the past forty-eight months months in the U.S. as a "tourist," who then applies for an extension after yet another 6 month visit, has gone past the boundaries of what is permissible in B1/B2 status. That request to extend status was destined to fail.

But, it actually does not answer the question as to whether such activity is considered "work" or not. Rather, it provides the opinion of a single adjudicating officer in a fairly extreme set of circumstances.

from the INA, regarding non immigrants under section B (for B1/B2 visa holders) are described as: "(B) an alien (other than one coming for the purpose of study or of performing skilled or unskilled labor or as a representative of foreign press, radio, film, or other foreign information media coming to engage in such vocation) having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning and who is visiting the United States temporarily for business or temporarily for pleasure;

...'other than one coming for the purpose of study or of performing skilled or unskilled labor....".....I see no exception for relatives coming to perform the relatively unskilled labor of childcare....

Please point me to the part of the INA that provides an exception for a tailor entering the U.S. to take measurements of a customer of a foreign company. Or, the exception allowing the B1/B2 visitor to enter the U.S. to negotiate a contract. Or, the exception allowing a B-2 visa to enter the U.S. and provide volunteer service. I could go on, and you would be hard pressed to find any foreign national who has immigrated to the U.S. only utilizing practices which are specifically described in the INA.

My point being is that you cannot look at the plain text of a statute to necessarily determine what activities are or are not permissible. U.S. law simply does not work this way; this is especially true when it comes to immigration law, which is regulated, in large part, by three separate government agencies. In addition to formal government manuals, there are court decisions, cables, memos, even off-the-cuff statements made by government officials during public engagements, all of which help compose the body of law known as "immigration law."

There is simply no clear answer to the question as to whether coming to the U.S. to spend time with a new grandchild, during which time the grandparent would be spending time alone with the grandchild, is or is not considered work. Neither the law nor the regulations address this question. (Although I would argue that, in practice, it is ludicrous to claim this constitutes work in light of the provisions found in 9 FAM 41.31 N14.4 related to household members entering in B-2 status and remaining in the U.S. with family members for months at a time.)

In closing, I would like to reiterate that the purpose of this forum is to provide support to those who have questions related to immigration law. If someone posts a question asking "can I come to the U.S. specifically to provide daycare to a relative," it may be appropriate to respond that such activity may not be permitted in B-2 status. But, even if someone "urgently" wishes to bring a grandparent to the U.S., this does not necessarily mean the primary purpose of the trip is to serve as a nanny; and, it certainly is not the black and white question that some of the posters here apparently believe it to be.

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I would agree that a relative who has spent twenty-four of the past forty-eight months months in the U.S. as a "tourist," who then applies for an extension after yet another 6 month visit, has gone past the boundaries of what is permissible in B1/B2 status. That request to extend status was destined to fail.

But, it actually does not answer the question as to whether such activity is considered "work" or not. Rather, it provides the opinion of a single adjudicating officer in a fairly extreme set of circumstances.

Well, there are likely more of such cases. I am not in the business of monitoring such things. I just happened to come across this years back, and I kept a link to it.

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Guest Noah Lotte

the activities you described at the beginning of your most recent response pertain to B1 visa holders (business)...a tailor can take measurements, but the sale of a suit cannot take place in the US...a painter could come and paint, and perhaps display his/her art, but cannot sell it directly in the US...volunteer service is very specific (B1), usually involving certain religious or charitable organizations within narrow limits), and of course, thanks to Congress, certain sheepherders and horse trainers, but again, under very limited circumstances. There is nothing inherently wrong with a grandparent wishing to spend time with their grandchildren (though spending meaningful time with a newborn is a bit difficult to comprehend); but grandparents, siblings, etc, coming to provide full time child care is not permitted for B2 visa holders...period...I still have not heard a reply as to whether or not you tell clients to tell the VOs they are coming to provide said child care, since you apparently do not believe such activity is prohibited by B2 visa holders...yet...I doubt you are encouraging clients to tell the entire truth....as to the 'urgency' of a visa appt, well, I have addressed that...the OP has remained silent on the matter...no doubt because some of us have figured out the true rationale behind such 'urgency.' Moreover, the 'plain text' of the INA is plain indeed...B2 visa holders cannot be coming to the US to perform skilled or unskilled labor...what is confusing about that statement?

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