I-140 EB2 Denied AMIE Qualification


AMIE Raju

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My I-140 EB2 (advanced degree professional) denied because USCIS saying that though AMIE is comparable to US Bachelor degree but it requires plus five years of work experience. This reference they picked up from AACRAO EDGE database which states that,

Associate Membership is attained after passing Section A & B examinations plus 5 years of work experience.

Though, the fact is Pass Section A & B examination of Institution of Engineers (India) is recognized as equivalent to 4 Year Bachelor Degree in Engineering and after passing both the sections, IEI awards "Associate" (AIE) membership of the institution and further after 5 years of work experience IEI awards "Asssociate Member" (AMIE). These two levels of memberships with similar words are creating all issues for the candidates who has this qualification.

AACRAO EDGE is the most reliable source of degree equivalency for USCIS since last 2-3 years.

Now, I need advise from honorable members of this forum that how to go in AAO appeal to defend my case.

My education is 12+ 3year Polytechnic Diploma+ AMIE+ PGDCA + 10 years of experience.

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Hi:

I had similar issues. You can look at my old posts. I have 10+3years Diploma+AMIETE+Masters in Science in Software Systems from Birla Institute of Technology and Sciences. I reapplied in EB2 using denied I140 labor recently and still waiting. This time I used AACRAO evaluation that USCIS was keep referring in my earlier denials.

The reason in my earlier denials was - the degree awarded by IETE or AMIE is not from college or degree awarding institute. My case was denied though I have a Masters from BITS, Pilani and they said we submitted conflicting evaluations (totally three and one letter from professor).

I used AACRAO evaluation this time and filed another I140 in august 2011 in EB2. My attorney was not willing to file the case with AACRAO evaluation since the evaluation has general comments saying that my masters is equal to US masters and also is equal to double degree (because this is conflicting to each other). Then I need to request another evaluation from AACRAO, but they were not willing to change the wordings. I had to explain to them and then they said my masters would be equal to US Bachelors. Finally, I called them before they finalizing my evaluation and explained to them difference between Msc (after 3 years degree) and MS (after 4 years engg degree) and they obliged and gave a corrected evaluation.

Now the new evaluation has -

Diploma -> equal to high school + 1 year of Bachelors

AMIETE -> may be comparable to US bachelors. Says it recognized by 10 or more indian universities for admission into masters degree

Masters -> Based on membership on AMITE, admitted to masters and this masters is comparable to US masters

But now looking at your denial, I am not sure what they will do with my case. When did you file your petition and when did you get the denial? When did you got your AACRAO evaluation?

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I am sorry to hear your denial decision on I140. These days USCIS is not considering AMIE is euqvalent to B.tech. They USCIS is college degree. It is very sad. I know AMIE very hard to attain it. They consider AMIE followed by M.tech under EB2.

I have spent lot of time to get the root cause of AMIE denial in recent years. I reviewed more than 10 AAO denial decisions (every single decision reference about AACRAO EDGE database). I have firm believe that USCIS simply go and check the degree equivalency in AACRAO EDGE database for degree equivalency and see below what EDGE says about AMIE qualification. (what a mess)

Associate Membership in The Institution of Engineers, is awarded upon

completion of Section "A" examination basic commonalities and Section B

examination consisting of compulsory, advanced commonality, discipline

commonalities and specialization options courses in various engineering Divisions

following the higher secondary certificate and *engaged in engineering or industrial

Profession at least for a period of 5 years.

Here EDGE screwed up every thing by wrongly interpreted the awards of membership after completion of Section A & B which should be "Associate" (AIE). Since "Associate Member" (AMIE) requires 5 years of work experience which is not acceptable under EB2 category.

Further, EDGE concludes:

*This represents attainment of a level of education comparable to Bachelors degree in the United States.

If someone can push AACRAO EDGE to fix this ambiguity in there database will save every ones life who is victim of this misinterpretation of two different level of memberships with similar words.

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  • 4 weeks later...

to 'AMIE Raju'

I'm on the same boat and wondering if EB2 porting would be an option for me!

How about securing a"expert opinion letter" for AMIE credentials from some eminent people plus the edu eval from other evaluators and ask AACRAO to fix the EDGE database? We can also ask IE India to push for this too? I'm open to teaming up here. It will be of broader implications and every body could benefit from this without leaving the judgement to the benefit of dount by USCIS agents. Any other takers?

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schintala:

I remember you said some time back you did AMIE+M.Tech. Could you tell me where did you do your M.Tech is it 1.5 or 2 years? Have you tried applying in EB2 using your masters only equivalency (PERM saying BS+5Yr or Masters)? -- thx

I am sorry to hear your denial decision on I140. These days USCIS is not considering AMIE is euqvalent to B.tech. They USCIS is college degree. It is very sad. I know AMIE very hard to attain it. They consider AMIE followed by M.tech under EB2.

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to 'AMIE Raju'

I'm on the same boat and wondering if EB2 porting would be an option for me!

How about securing a"expert opinion letter" for AMIE credentials from some eminent people plus the edu eval from other evaluators and ask AACRAO to fix the EDGE database? We can also ask IE India to push for this too? I'm open to teaming up here. It will be of broader implications and every body could benefit from this without leaving the judgement to the benefit of dount by USCIS agents. Any other takers?

Hi Saratggo,

Nothing is going to work. Per my belief and experience AMIE will not be accepted by USCIS until EDGE database reviewed by AACRAO competent aouthorities and fixed.

Basically, EDGE database should have explaination for professional degree program (completion of section A & B) of Institution of Engineers (India). I don't know why EDGE have description of how to get award of Associate Member (AMIE) membership of the institution for the purpose of degree equivalency.

Being a professional body Institution of Engineers (India) awards various levels of membership like Associate, Associate Member, Fellow Member and for these they have their own qualification/experience requirement to get award of these. These membership levels has nothing to do with there professional engineering degree program (completion of section A & B) which is equivalent to Bachelor degree as per Govt. of India Gazett notification.

Question to Murthy Attorney: Is there any law in United States which allows to chalenge AACRAO EDGE database which is affecting many IEI's Graduate candidates in GC process because USCIS rely heavily on EDGE database blindly. Since its a non profit organisation?????????

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  • 2 weeks later...

Finally, my I140 in EB2 has been approved today. This has PD of 2001. It was earlier approved by TSC and revoked by NSC, and appealed and it sent back to NSC after 2 years, finally NSC stuck to their decision to revoke it. I have labor with BS+5 years or MS+3 years and eduction is Diploma+AMIETE+MS(1.5 years)-Pilani. We refiled the case again last August and received NOID few weeks back. Their point was that MS which is Masters of Science is equivalent to US Bachelors after 3/4-years Indian bachelor. EDGE database has Masters of Science is equivalent to US Bachelors. Since MS is also masters of science and they considering my masters as M.Sc. and sent NOID. I contacted AACRAO EDGE and asked them to clarify on MS and M.Sc. and update their database. They promptly responded and sent a clarifying letter to our attorney and USCIS and said that they would be updating EDGE database too. Looks like my approval is based on MS not on AMIETE.

It has been 11 years in this country and we refiled I140 exactly 10 years after my priority date.

All the best and thanks for reading.

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Thanks! schintala. Please make sure the evaluation for EB2 is from AACRAO. Not sure why yours was denied in EB2 though you have M.Tech and not MS which should have been straight forward since there is no confusion. Did you have Masters in your LC/PERM in your earlier EB2? I hope you are making sure Masters requirement is there in your PERM. I highly doubt that they would approve with BS+5 years with AMIE. Please contact me if you need any help.

Congratulations. You are deserved under EB2. My original EB2 was denied and got approval in EB3 category due to AMIE. We are working on EB2 again. Mine is Diploma+AMIE+M.Tech(1.5) from IT, BHU.

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Hi GC_In_2006

Congratulations, your hardword and perseverance finally rewarded.

My EB2 2004 PD is also denied, mine is 3 yrs polytechnic and AMIE. I did have 5 years working experience when i completed AMIE. The main reason quoted for denial is that Institution of Engineers is not a university that can issue degrees, USCIS says its just a professional institute. My LC has just 4years degree + 5 years of experience as requirement. I saw some of our members mentioned they got the EB3 approved with same labor. Do you guys think it will work in my case? I have my EB3 approved with a new PERM with PD2008 and associates as the requirement.

Please share your experiences.

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skotgc:

It is very difficult to get approval based on AMIE/AMIETE. Do you have 5 years experience after completing AMIE? In some of my denials/revoke before, they didn't agree that AMIE/AMIETE from a college or degree awarding institute. They are considering it as a professional institute (as you said). AACRAO EDGE database equates AMIE/AMIETE to US Bachelors. Hence I believe, the only way you can try is to get a letter from an US professor who can understand AMIE/AMIETE and explain in the letter that though the degree says 'Associate Member', this is not awarded with professional experience by paying the fees, and one has to earn the degree by passing the courses like any four years Bachelors of Engineering degree. As OP said, EDGE has a reference to 5-years experience for AMIE, but according to him it has been since removed. You can try one more time in EB2 for 2004 PD and if you get a query again on 5-years experience part of AMIE degree, you can contact AACRAO EDGE to give a clarification.

I don't think you can file EB3 using your 2004 PD that 4 years degree+5 years experience since it still an EB2 and USCIS don't consider AMIE as 4-years bachelors.

I still believe, it might be difficult to get AMIE in EB2 approved until USCIS understand the degree properly.

All the best.

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Thanks GC_in_2006. I do have more than 5 years experience after completing AMIE. My main problem is dealing with corporate paralegal and attorney. I dont have the flexibility of availing any other attorney, so without solid proof that some thing concretely changed for AMIE, its difficult to re-file.

Since few guys mentioned they got the approval in EB3 with AMIE, I wanted to know if they have used same LC and the requirement is just 4 years degree. Your case and S_Chintala case is little different as you guys have MS/MTech. I agree with you, AMIE not followed by MS is difficult to get around. Even though they are siting some different reasons, they seems to be lot of denials for AMIE/IETE.

Thank you

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Finally, my I140 in EB2 has been approved today. This has PD of 2001. It was earlier approved by TSC and revoked by NSC, and appealed and it sent back to NSC after 2 years, finally NSC stuck to their decision to revoke it. I have labor with BS+5 years or MS+3 years and eduction is Diploma+AMIETE+MS(1.5 years)-Pilani. We refiled the case again last August and received NOID few weeks back. Their point was that MS which is Masters of Science is equivalent to US Bachelors after 3/4-years Indian bachelor. EDGE database has Masters of Science is equivalent to US Bachelors. Since MS is also masters of science and they considering my masters as M.Sc. and sent NOID. I contacted AACRAO EDGE and asked them to clarify on MS and M.Sc. and update their database. They promptly responded and sent a clarifying letter to our attorney and USCIS and said that they would be updating EDGE database too. Looks like my approval is based on MS not on AMIETE.

It has been 11 years in this country and we refiled I140 exactly 10 years after my priority date.

All the best and thanks for reading.

Hi GC in 2006,

Congratulations! Could you please let me know whom you have wrote (name/e-mail ID) in AACRAO/EDGE to request coorections.

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I have spent lot of time to get the root cause of AMIE denial in recent years. I reviewed more than 10 AAO denial decisions (every single decision reference about AACRAO EDGE database). I have firm believe that USCIS simply go and check the degree equivalency in AACRAO EDGE database for degree equivalency and see below what EDGE says about AMIE qualification. (what a mess)

Associate Membership in The Institution of Engineers, is awarded upon

completion of Section "A" examination basic commonalities and Section B

examination consisting of compulsory, advanced commonality, discipline

commonalities and specialization options courses in various engineering Divisions

following the higher secondary certificate and *engaged in engineering or industrial

Profession at least for a period of 5 years.

Here EDGE screwed up every thing by wrongly interpreted the awards of membership after completion of Section A & B which should be "Associate" (AIE). Since "Associate Member" (AMIE) requires 5 years of work experience which is not acceptable under EB2 category.

Further, EDGE concludes:

*This represents attainment of a level of education comparable to Bachelors degree in the United States.

If someone can push AACRAO EDGE to fix this ambiguity in there database will save every ones life who is victim of this misinterpretation of two different level of memberships with similar words.

Can we somehow reach out to AACRAO EDGE and get this fixed, I am ready to team up if a joint effort is worth a try.

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The language used by EDGE to describe the value of the Associate Membership is the same language used to describe the value of a degree like a Bachelor of Technology degree. Specifically, they both say: "This represents attainment of a level of education comparable to Bachelors degree in the United States."

The reason that the AAO has a problem with accepting the AMIE as meeting the degree requirement from IEI or Associate Membership from the ICAI, etc. is the AAO says because these institutions are not themselves a university. If you read the AAO decisions dismissing such appeals and denying the I-140 petitions, this is where the case falls apart. This is why when AAO does approve such cases they are usually in EB3 Skilled Worker classification, and not in EB2.

Now, while the AAO's reliance on the EDGE database may itself be fraught with legal problems - and someone interested in challenging the AAO and USCIS in Federal Court is welcome to contact the Murthy Law Firm about such a case, the language that the EDGE database uses now or in the future is unlikely to make a difference.

People might have better success at winning EB2 classification for an AMIE in trying to prove that the IEI educational program does meet the definition of the term "university." We have yet to see this happen though.

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The language used by EDGE to describe the value of the Associate Membership is the same language used to describe the value of a degree like a Bachelor of Technology degree. Specifically, they both say: "This represents attainment of a level of education comparable to Bachelors degree in the United States."

The reason that the AAO has a problem with accepting the AMIE as meeting the degree requirement from IEI or Associate Membership from the ICAI, etc. is the AAO says because these institutions are not themselves a university. If you read the AAO decisions dismissing such appeals and denying the I-140 petitions, this is where the case falls apart. This is why when AAO does approve such cases they are usually in EB3 Skilled Worker classification, and not in EB2.

Now, while the AAO's reliance on the EDGE database may itself be fraught with legal problems - and someone interested in challenging the AAO and USCIS in Federal Court is welcome to contact the Murthy Law Firm about such a case, the language that the EDGE database uses now or in the future is unlikely to make a difference.

People might have better success at winning EB2 classification for an AMIE in trying to prove that the IEI educational program does meet the definition of the term "university." We have yet to see this happen though.

Hi Murthy Attorney,

Thank you for the valuable insight about the shortcomings.

There are some facts about the incorporation of Institution of Engineers (India).

Institution of Engineers (India) was incorporated under Royal Charter* in the year 1935 of His Majesty King, London, United Kingdom. Award letter of Royal Charter link,

https://www.ieindia.info/PDF_Images/royalchar/Royal%20Charter.pdf

This Royal Charter is clearly states, that Institution of Engineers is incorporated under the Indian Companies Act, 1913, further in 1935 granted Royal Charter of Incorporation and granted powers/authority to,

**To establish, acquire, carry on, control or advice with regard to colleges, schools or other educational establishments where students and apprentices may obtain a sound education and training in Engineering on such terms as may be settled by the Institution.

Further, it says that

**…. to provide for the holding of classes and to test by examination or otherwise the competence of such persons and to institute and establish professorships, studentships, scholarships, Rewards and other benefactions and to grant certificates of competency whether under any Act of the Government of India or Local Governments regulating the conduct and qualifications of Engineers or otherwise howsoever.

Definition of Royal Charter on Wikipedia: A royal charter is a formal document issued by a monarch as letters patent, granting a right or power to an individual or a body corporate. They were, and are still, used to establish significant organizations such as cities or universities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_charter

Colleges created by Royal charter in United States are,

Columbia University (1754) as King's College, The College of William & Mary (1693)

Harvard College (1639), Yale University (1701), Princeton University (1746), Brown University (1764), Rutgers University (1766), Dartmouth College (1769)

I believe this is good supporting information if Murthy law firm can take interest in challenging the AAO and USCIS in Federal Court. We can group 3-4 candidates to pay for this effort.

Please advise….

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i am in the same situation, 3 years diploma + AMIE + 14 years of IT experience, my EB2 I-140 has been denied and my company reapplied in EB3 category and I-140 approved, my PD dec 2008.

My EB3 140 is also challenged because of AMIE degree. Can you please tell me what was the education requirement on your EB3 labor and was your EB3 140 filed under skilled worker or professional

Highly appreciate your Immidiately response

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The language used by EDGE to describe the value of the Associate Membership is the same language used to describe the value of a degree like a Bachelor of Technology degree. Specifically, they both say: "This represents attainment of a level of education comparable to Bachelors degree in the United States."

The reason that the AAO has a problem with accepting the AMIE as meeting the degree requirement from IEI or Associate Membership from the ICAI, etc. is the AAO says because these institutions are not themselves a university. If you read the AAO decisions dismissing such appeals and denying the I-140 petitions, this is where the case falls apart. This is why when AAO does approve such cases they are usually in EB3 Skilled Worker classification, and not in EB2.

Now, while the AAO's reliance on the EDGE database may itself be fraught with legal problems - and someone interested in challenging the AAO and USCIS in Federal Court is welcome to contact the Murthy Law Firm about such a case, the language that the EDGE database uses now or in the future is unlikely to make a difference.

People might have better success at winning EB2 classification for an AMIE in trying to prove that the IEI educational program does meet the definition of the term "university." We have yet to see this happen though.

Please advise the people on this forum how to initiate this and who can be a part of this? We can group and proceed.

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