HR 3012....Discussion


roul_raj123

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@JoeF: So, let's call this bill what it is: a blatant way to screw over other people for your personal advantage. It is as if you would sell your own mother for the GC.

JoeF, you belong to a group of people (EB3-ROW), for whom, what matters most is that their group of people deserves to get GCs much faster than other EB3 groups, even though it screws other group of people. The categorization of EB3-ROW was set up by LAW, and so it was gifted to the EB3-ROW group of people as a PRIVILEGE, but do not misinterpret it as a RIGHT. Just like Driving License is given to an individual as a PRIVILEGE, but not as a RIGHT. The PRIVILEGE can be taken out by the LAW. HR3012 is introduced to enact it as LAW so that EB3-I will now receive the benefit that EB3-ROW was getting for years. There is nothing inhuman or wrong in it, when the visa numbers were never the RIGHTS of EB3-ROW group of people. Some people want to forget that basic fact very intentionally.

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You won't give it up, will you?

No, JoeF is not EB3. Never was. My understanding, he has a PhD. From a really prestigious university, too.

Close. I am ABD (All But Dissertation.) I dropped out of the PhD program at a University of California campus due to funding drying up. I probably would have needed another year.

But such is life... With some distance, it was the right decision.

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JoeF,

I could not reply to you on the other 3012 thread at it is locked now. For reference I quote here:

The only people writing and passing the bill are congressmen. They are making the intelligent decision. IV can only exercise their freedom of speech right. It is the decision of legislative and executive branches to write and approve the bill. Please direct the ire towards them.

IV lobbied, including spending money on this.

>>So does it mean that US congressmen will do anything for money and not think of good of the country? Did IV pay US chamber of commerce and Microsoft too to support this bill.

As far as I remember Supreme Court of USA has termed paying money to politicians legally, freedom of speech. And in any case the decision is not IVs, it is the people of USA via their elected representatives.

Disclaimer: I am not an IV or any other association member and I will not greatly profit or suffer because of HR 3012. I am just writing about what I think is relatively fair

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India/China category suffered from this quota for many decades (more so because of large number of people suffering) now ROW will get restricted for 3 years only and then there would be no quota. We are moving towards no quota in few years time and this cannot be bad.

The fact is that this bill introduces new quotas. If you don't want any quota, you should be against these new quotas. Otherwise, you are only showing hypocrisy.

>>Currently we have quota and the status quo will preserve that quota. The HR 3012 bill will eliminate quota. Quota is bad. HR 3012 will eliminate it in 3 years (even though it introduces temporary restrictions). What hypocrisy are you talking about? You also don't want quota but you want current quota system to not go away too (wishing for impossible/impracticable does not help, doing action does). I would have gladly conceded the point to you had you offered a more valid reasoning as I am not arguing for the sake of argument.

The other solutions of comprehensive immigration reform, increase in number of visa or visa recapture are not going to get done in foreseeable future, given the state of economy and political divisions. (DREAM act, which is unfair, seems likely to be passed in few years though)

So, you have so much political clout that you "know" what is going to get done or not... yeah right...

You are just reposting IV talking points that you know nothing about.

And about Dream, it seems that you are not a human being, since you seem to be without human compassion for people who had no input about coming to the US.

>>I dont want to go off from the topic of HR3012 but need to respond to the above. I said DREAM act seems likely to pass. You turned this in to something I "know". Can't I express my estimation?

About fairness part, DREAM act will allow illegal children of illegal parents to get permanent residence status if they meet certain criteria. But if legal children of tax paying, law abiding legal immigrant are in the queue (where the wait times are huge), they wont get the same benefit even if they meet the same criteria (other than being illegal). In both the cases the kids came to USA for no fault of theirs. A law that requires you to be illegal to get a benefit and denies it to legals cannot be fair. But the legislature of a country is free to pass any law it sees fit and I am free to express my opinion about it, as are you

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And of course, it is usually the antis who think my opinions are based on personal advantages. In the 90ies, the antis used to call me a Microsoft shill, just because I support the H1 program.

Similar here. Uneducated people who can't understand that opinions can be formed based on analysis of the situation, uneducated people who think I must be a Latino, possible illegal, just because I support Dream, uneducated people who think I must be EB3-ROW because I think HR3012 is a bad bill. Uneducated people who apparently can not fathom that a person doesn't need to be personally affected to analyze data and form opinions based on that analysis. That, btw, is something that gets taught at good universities, in particular in graduate programs leading to PhDs. Afer all, a PhD thesis, in fact all science, is all about collection and analysis of data, which confirms or disproves a hypothesis.

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This bill will pass with minor changes. H1B quota will be reduced from 65,000 to below 50,000 (Grassley's concern).

I didn't quite get this: There is no increase in visa, no visa capture. How does this bill effects unemployed Americans? Do you think EB2 and EB3 should be abolished if Grassley thinks EB is bad for US because we take away their jobs?

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JoeF,

I could not reply to you on the other 3012 thread at it is locked now.

It apparently got locked because there was mobbing going on.

I won't respond to your post here, other than saying, I stand by my claim that IV has become part of the problem.

If you wish to continue the discussion, get the IV admins to welcome non-Indians and to not delete posts that are critical of their line.

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JoeF,

Do you see anything good coming out of this bill?

Considering that it passed the house with a 95% majority, some folks must see something good with.

It passed in the House because there wasn't any discussion about the merits. That happens quite often, but doesn't say anything about the bill.

The bill is bad because it takes from A to give to B, and it introduces new quotas.

One good thing is that it opened the discussion a bit more. I hope that IV stops suppressing voices that criticize the bill, and I hope that based on the fate of the bill, IV becomes again a voice of all immigrants.

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@Belle: No, JoeF is not EB3. Never was. My understanding, he has a PhD. From a really prestigious university, too. Do you?
@JoeF: Huh?

Where do you get that from?

I am a naturalized US citizen, as I have explained often.

Please do not make assumptions, and actually read my posts once in a while...

  1. Every one cheering and supporting for “St. Louis Cardinals” baseball team does not participate in the baseball game. The same way everyone cheering and supporting for EB3-ROW, is not supposed to be an EB3-ROW applicant. Is it too hard to understand? Are you not matured enough to decipher the meaning unless and until you are explained with the examples?
  2. Regarding the PhD, I guess you have already had the answers from JoeF. Next time, make sure to know the facts before asking the question “Do you?”.
  3. By the way this is not a forum to post your educational qualifications.
  4. By the way this is not a forum to post your immigration/citizenship status.
  5. Sometimes, own understanding does not make sense, and at that times understanding needs introspection.

Anyway this is a good tactic to avoid the truth in the 1st post of this thread. You tried your best to divert from the truth.

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Let us not make this personal. JoeF or Belle are members who have taken the time out to help people on this forum, though they have long past been done with immigration related issues. They do have a lot of knowledge. And we must respect them for that. They have opinions with which we might not agree. I do agree that HR 3012 is a badly crafted bill, in that it does not address the main issue plaguing immigration to the US.

But Joe and Belle should understand that most people on this forum are not citizens. Basically with no voice on political issues. No Senator or Congressman will want to listen to you to come up with a bill that helps them. They are just not a constituency that they cater to. So unless there is some one who has felt the pain, decides to bring up a bill, nothing will work. Even if good bills are brought forward, they don't get passed, because no one in Congress is interested in additional people vying for jobs or becoming citizens earlier, even if they are contributing members of US society.

Without being divisive, I want an opinion from Joe or Belle about why they think that things are fair as they are and that the backlogged countries don't have a level playing field. And let me put my case. I am from one of the backlogged country and have graduated with Master's from an Ivy league University. Another student in my class is from Portugal. He graduated with me with essentially the same grades (just to prove that he is not smarter!). He was immediately able to file for GC and will be eligible for citizenship next year. I am still stuck with my job and have only recently been able to apply. He has been promoted already and I cannot be considered for promotions, even when i have been rated as outstanding performer for all the years I have been in this position (because of the I-140 position).

Why should I not feel that this is a raw deal and only because I am from a back logged country. In fact on most parameters both the back logged countries are probably better than Portugal today!

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JoeF,

Do you see anything good coming out of this bill?

Considering that it passed the house with a 95% majority, some folks must see something good with.

It may be a gateway for more, better, immgration bills. Or maybe not. It it divides the immgrant community, and it is unable to present a united front for sesible immigration bills that help ALL, it will be a net loss rather than gain.

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Suncrest, nobody says the system is fair. In fact, it is very unfair, and not just to the backlogged countries. It is sucker system, and chews up everyone, and does not serve the interests of the country. It needs to be reformed.

Now, the question is how it should be reformed. My principle is that "help, don't hurt". Basically, if a bill brings relief to one (or several) immgrant groups without hurting other groups, it is a good bill. This bill does not pass my standard. This is not about fairness (and I do think it is totally unfair for Indians to be backlogged longer than other nationalitites) - it is about what it does to the immigrant community. This bill, in my opinion, divides the EB community, and thus thier total influence is diminished. Now, everyone will try to create nationality-based groups, and try to pass relief to their own only, and if at the expense of other immgrants, so be it. It's particularly true of smaller nationalities. Don't we already have H1s reserved for... Singapureans? Australians? Can't remember... anyway, that's where it is going to go. Now, throwing your fellow immigrants under the bus to get a gain for your nationality is a fair game. And that's how the antis will chip away at all of us, by using our own.

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The bill is bad because it takes from A to give to B, and it introduces new quotas.

I do not understand your point. You are opposed to a temporary quota for smooth transition but you are OK contnuing with current quota system ? So what you are saying is, as long as A has quota, it is fair , if B gets a quota , even temporarily , it is unfair !

One good thing is that it opened the discussion a bit more. I hope that IV stops suppressing voices that criticize the bill, and I hope that based on the fate of the bill, IV becomes again a voice of all immigrants.

I agree IV should open up discussion .

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About fairness part, DREAM act will allow illegal children of illegal parents to get permanent residence status if they meet certain criteria. But if legal children of tax paying, law abiding legal immigrant are in the queue (where the wait times are huge), they wont get the same benefit even if they meet the same criteria (other than being illegal). In both the cases the kids came to USA for no fault of theirs.

Excellent point. I can see compassion for children of illegal immigrants but nothing for children of legal immigrants .... why ? Both have come to this country with their parents , not per their own choice .

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But Joe and Belle should understand that most people on this forum are not citizens. Basically with no voice on political issues.

That's where IV, if run better, could be a very helpful organization. Too bad that they decided to screw some immigrants for the benefit of others. I hope they change their ways.

Without being divisive, I want an opinion from Joe or Belle about why they think that things are fair as they are and that the backlogged countries don't have a level playing field. And let me put my case. I am from one of the backlogged country and have graduated with Master's from an Ivy league University. Another student in my class is from Portugal. He graduated with me with essentially the same grades (just to prove that he is not smarter!). He was immediately able to file for GC and will be eligible for citizenship next year. I am still stuck with my job and have only recently been able to apply. He has been promoted already and I cannot be considered for promotions, even when i have been rated as outstanding performer for all the years I have been in this position (because of the I-140 position).

Why should I not feel that this is a raw deal and only because I am from a back logged country. In fact on most parameters both the back logged countries are probably better than Portugal today!

Well, first, it used to be a level playing field. The country quotas are the same for every country. It is not the fault of the US that there are more people from some countries who want to come to the US.

Second, the level playing field was left quite some time ago, with numbers not used by undersubscribed countries being given to oversubscribed countries. It is obvious that that still is not enough to get rid of the backlogs. But it is still not the fault of the US, nor the US immigration system, that there are more people from some countries who want to come to the US. Ideally, there would be no quota at all. But that is not realistic.

Third, please drop the "contributing members of society" stuff. Illegals also contribute to society. They actually get the really raw deal, because they don't get anything in return. And the antis claim that employment-based immigrants cost American jobs, so their claim is that the contribution of employment-based immigrants is negative. Pretty much anybody using the "I'm paying taxes" line hasn't thought this stuff through.

It helps to take a step back and abstract from one's personal situation. One's personal situation introduces a bias which tends to cloud the analysis. I know it's not easy; in the medical profession, for example, people who work with cancer patients often burn out because there is an emotional toll knowing that most of the patients are going to be dead in a few years (I have a friend who worked as nurse with terminally ill patients...)

Finally, please stop this "country X is better than country Y" stuff. That goes in the same direction. No country is better than another country. Period. If Portugal, for example, goes through a rough spot currently, that may have to do with the fact that Portugal, until 1974, was ruled by a dictator (Salazar.) Similarly with Spain. Franco died in 1975. India became independent in 1947, so if at all, it would be more prudent to compare it to West Germany, which was formed after WW2, in 1949, from the territories occupied by the 3 Western forces France, UK, and US.

Having said all that, there unfortunately is no quick way to solve the backlogs.

The best ways would be to increase the quotas and take spouses out of the quotas. That would have a much bigger impact on the backlogs than this bill, which only takes from A to give to B. This bill would just shift the "raw deal", as you call it, from one group of people to another. And that's never a good idea. The goal should be to get rid of the "raw deal", not to just give it to somebody else.

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It may be a gateway for more, better, immgration bills. Or maybe not. It it divides the immgrant community, and it is unable to present a united front for sesible immigration bills that help ALL, it will be a net loss rather than gain.

Do you think Immigrant community has ever been united ? Has any EB2- ROW (or EB1 - ALL) ever contributed to any movement by any of the legal immgrant groups ? They don't , because they are not suffering. Even EB3- ROW is not that involved since they see light at the end of long tunnel , unlike those from I/C.

It will probably bring more Immigrants (legal immigrants) to a common platform since more legal immigrants will now feel the pain which till now is felt only by people from certain countries

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@ Suncrest: Let us not make this personal. JoeF or Belle are members who have taken the time out to help people on this forum, though they have long past been done with immigration related issues. They do have a lot of knowledge. And we must respect them for that.

No One is denying that fact. It looks like that they do not want respect, and want to condemn openly EB3-I for stealing EB3-ROW’s visa numbers (If HR 3012 will become a LAW), which is not true. Their intentions are to start a cat fight by mentioning provocative statements, which cannot be helped. As I have already mentioned that each and every category was set up by LAW, and should be interpreted as a PRIVILEGE, but not as a RIGHT, but JoeF and Belle are thinking that it is EB3-ROW’s RIGHT. Once HR3012 will become a LAW, EB3-ROW’s privilege will be transferred to EB3-I.

All the European Countries are very small in area and population, when compared to India, and China. There are many states in India and China that are bigger than the European Countries. So there is no astonishing fact that people from India and China fills USA with more immigrants than Europeans. Take also into account the number of Graduates in India, against the number of graduates in European Countries. So it is very obvious that Country Caps should be removed to absorb the demand, as it does not make sense to be unfair with a particular country. There is no Offense to Europeans, but it applies to all small countries, like Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka etc.

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Regarding the PhD, I guess you have already had the answers from JoeF. Next time, make sure to know the facts before asking the question “Do you?”.

Anyway this is a good tactic to avoid the truth in the 1st post of this thread. You tried your best to divert from the truth.

Actually, my question was addressing you, not Joe. So, what's the truth?

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No One is denying that fact. It looks like that they do not want respect, and want to condemn openly EB3-I for stealing EB3-ROW’s visa numbers (If HR 3012 will become a LAW), which is not true. Their intentions are to start a cat fight by mentioning provocative statements, which cannot be helped. As I have already mentioned that each and every category was set up by LAW, and should be interpreted as a PRIVILEGE, but not as a RIGHT, but JoeF and Belle are thinking that it is EB3-ROW’s RIGHT. Once HR3012 will become a LAW, EB3-ROW’s privilege will be transferred to EB3-I.

All the European Countries are very small in area and population, when compared to India, and China. There are many states in India and China that are bigger than the European Countries. So there is no astonishing fact that people from India and China fills USA with more immigrants than Europeans. Take also into account the number of Graduates in India, against the number of graduates in European Countries. So it is very obvious that Country Caps should be removed to absorb the demand, as it does not make sense to be unfair with a particular country. There is no Offense to Europeans, but it applies to all small countries, like Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka etc.

Thanks for coming with wild and cooky ideas of what Belle and Joe think. They only reflect how you think about immigration. You must get the priority, everyone be damned.

So, here is my question, what will you be willing to give up in exchange for this perceived fairness?

Cut H1 quota to 50K? How about 30K a year? Will you be willing to cut EB quota to 100K? You are getting a bigger share, remember? How about 80K a year for all EB? Where is your bottom line?

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Do you think Immigrant community has ever been united ? Has any EB2- ROW (or EB1 - ALL) ever contributed to any movement by any of the legal immgrant groups ? They don't , because they are not suffering.

Well, actually, I did, and I still do (obviously, now not IV). What's your point?

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