Ideas? How to move EB3 forward

[StressedAbtGC]

Originally posted by Illinois_Dude:

For real life -- dozens of PhD and hundreds of MS works for a drop out -- Bill Gates

Some geniuses may not have a formal education..but all people without education are not geniuses..

hear hear!!

[StressedAbtGC]

Originally posted by Illinois_Dude:

It is a small minority who fake their experience ..

I don't think so. Isn't it a norm in most desi consultancies to put years and years of experience to be even considered for a job ?

They won't even market your resume without that..

I think the small consulting companies (read desi companies) get trashed a lot and probably rightfully so. I myself have been at the receiving end of their shady practices. But the world is not absolutely black and white.

The smaller consulting companies are a valuable part of the service industry (let us focus on IT for discussion sake). They provide a cheaper alternative to clients. Not everybody wants to pay (or can afford) $250/hr for an IBM consultant and there is no guarantee he will be anymore qualified/experienced than a $100/hr consultant from a smaller firm. Plus, there is exploitation of human resources in bigger companies as well.

As for background checks, don't just blame the desi consulting companies. Do you think all these direct vendors, most of which are American companies, care to do a voluntary background check when sub-contracting? No. They wouldn't spend a dollar more than required. They don't care if you lied on your resume. They just want to know if you can hold your own once you are in the job. They will only perform a background check if a client requests it.

Every company in this business wants a piece of the pie. They wouldn't sit back just because they can't find a 100% experienced and qualified person. Some companies might be shamelessly upfront about it while staffing and some companies might be discreet. Believe me, it happens everywhere.

[Belle]

So, basically, you could not come up with better ideas than try to grab a some numbers from EB2 India/China? Nice.

[Illinois_Dude]

US wants to treat education and experience from a third world country questionable. I think they are right in that

Perhaps you haven't even heard of Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) or REC etc

Haven't you heard of the equation

Princeton+MIT+Harvard = IIT..

Please stop generalizing..I suppose you are one of those narrow-minded americans who have not seen the world.

[testvisauser]

Total number of illegal immigrants in the US (11 million+) is much much much greater than the number of legal immigrants trying to get permanent residence.

So illegal immigration needs to be taken care of first.

I say this having lived here and paid taxes every single day for the past 10 years and anticipating another 4 yr wait for EB2 :-). But... I 'grew up' in this country, love and respect her to death and would give up anything in this world for being here.

[Illinois_Dude]

Its possible only because Bill Gates is a USC

Please !! so you are saying it depends on nationality..

So US is the only place where genius dropouts have made it big..give me a break.

Never heard of people like Dhirubhai Amabani(Founder of Reliance). etc.. ??!!

[roul_raj123]

Come on guys. I am hearing a lot of hero-praising about going for a Master’s Degree, and if you don’t get a Master degree, then you are not a genius. Here I will give you some more examples about how genius they are.

1) When a person applies for a Student Visa to do a Master’s degree, he clearly makes sure with the Visa Officer at the Embassy that they do intend to come back to their home country after the Study is over. Most of the times, once the study is over, they change their mind, and decide to work in this country, contrary to what they told to the Visa Officer. So that means that what they told to the visa officer was a lie. This is the 1st starting point of being a fake genius.

2) When they finish the Master Degree, most of the times, when they apply for the job, they know beforehand that they need to put at least 5-7 years of fake experience in their resume. When Managers scan 100s of resumes, they filter for experience, and if you do not fulfill that criteria, then those resumes are trashed into dustbin. These Master Degree holders then create their resume in such a way that, their resumes will have at least 5-7 years of fake experience. This is the 2nd point of being a fake genius.

3) When true genius people do their Master Degree or PhD degree, they have some objectives. Some of the examples are

a) Join a University to be a professor

b) Join a Research & Development wing, where they can invent some new thing etc.

But where these fake genius master degree holders land? They land in the IT sector, where they do software development (Coding), QA, etc. Come on, if you want to do such works, then you don’t need a Master Degree. You can join a 3 months diploma course, and you are all set. Is there something I missed? Yes I missed one thing here; these people need just a Paper Certificate with a Master Degree stamp, so that they can play around the loopholes in the immigration system, and apply for EB2. This is the 3rd point of being a fake genius.

On the contrary, a person with EB3 category does not need to go through all these paths. So everyone here in this thread can decide who the true genius is.

[chakrakr]

Originally posted by Illinois_Dude:

It is a small minority who fake their experience ..

I don't think so. Isn't it a norm in most desi consultancies to put years and years of experience to be even considered for a job ?

They won't even market your resume without that..

And you think majority of H1 holders (I mean those without US education) are from desi consultancies ? What is the source of your statistics ?

[chakrakr]

Originally posted by Illinois_Dude:

For real life -- dozens of PhD and hundreds of MS works for a drop out -- Bill Gates

Jeez..I've heard this before..This is a very lame excuse..Bill Gates dropping out of Phd..Steve Jobs not having a degree..Einstein being a slow learner...Thomas Edison being a misfit in school...

I am talking about normal people..

For "normal people" in US, experience is counted over education in most cases. The VP of IT operations in our company is a BA in History, of course with 20 + years of experience . There are tonns of such example.

You seem to be still carrying the mentality of your home country where a degree is considered all important.

There is a reason why CIS consider experience when granting H1 to someone without a degree.

BTW, I just read an interesting article -- about a Ghost writer who provide his (paid) service to Graduate and even PhD students.

[chakrakr]

Originally posted by Illinois_Dude:

I am talking about normal people..if they are indeed extraordinary then they would be beyond all this EB ****..So please stop these comparisons...

Indeed. If you think with your US education , you have become extra ordinary, why do you languish in EB2 (and through bricks at EB 3) .... go for EB 1

[chakrakr]

Originally posted by Illinois_Dude:

Do you think that the Indian IT giants do not conduct a background verification ? You have to learn a lot.[/

I am talking about desi consultancies..

Please don't try to convince me that they do that..

and you are convinced that all Indian Educated folks work for Desi Consultants and all US graduates goes to fortune 10 comapnies ?

What about this --- http://murthyforum.atinfopop.com/4/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1024039761&f=4234032861&m=1251011912&r=1251011912#1251011912 . Reality is, desi consulting companies get their biggest chunk through OPT -- H1 route.

[Belle]

Let me get this straight - the experience is fake, and the degrees are cr@p, so nobody deserves to immigrate.

That's the usual outcome when immigrants fight against immigrants for a bigger piece of a measely handout - they only give the antis more reasons not to give them green cards. Ya'll just proved my point. Keep on fighting and digging your hole.

[Pokymon]

United States ranked 14 in reading skills, 17 in science and 25 in mathematics. USCIS still wants to see US education?

By the way, China is number 1 in both Math and Science.

Why US is lacking in Education? They want to scare immigrants away. In few years, some other country will welcome highly talented immigrants.

Congress and President only fight for budget since they were elected may be until 2012.

[chakrakr]

Originally posted by chakrakr:

Originally posted by Illinois_Dude:

I am talking about normal people..if they are indeed extraordinary then they would be beyond all this EB ****..So please stop these comparisons...

Indeed. If you think with your US education , you have become extra ordinary, why do you languish in EB2 (and through bricks at EB 3) .... go for EB 1

>> should be "throw bricks to EB 3"

[StressedAbtGC]

Originally posted by chakrakr:

For "normal people" in US, experience is counted over education in most cases. The VP of IT operations in our company is a BA in History, of course with 20 + years of experience . There are tonns of such example.

The Sr.VP of IT in our company is a PhD in computer science, is only 38 years old and has 3 VPs and 6 Directors working for him. He is way ahead of your VP in terms of career progression.

You seem to be still carrying the mentality of your home country where a degree is considered all important.

This cannot be a serious comment. Education is important. Even in your above example your VP had some degree, didn't he? I really hope you don't tell your kids that a degree/education is not important.

BTW, I just read an interesting article -- about a Ghost writer who provide his (paid) service to Graduate and even PhD students.

What is your point here? Just to counter you, haven't you heard about people piggybacking other people thru their careers?

I don't know how the discussion has turned into education vs experience. They are supposed to be complementary. Education enhances your career prospects and experience helps you progress thru your career. I am not sure what job postings you look at but most companies, when hiring, are willing to let candidates substitute experience for higher degrees and vice versa.

[Joe.F]

Originally posted by chakrakr:

For "normal people" in US, experience is counted over education in most cases. The VP of IT operations in our company is a BA in History, of course with 20 + years of experience . There are tonns of such example.

You seem to be still carrying the mentality of your home country where a degree is considered all important.

There is a reason why CIS consider experience when granting H1 to someone without a degree.

It seems I am agreeing more with you lately...

A degree is important for the entry-level jobs.

The longer somebody is out of college, the less important the degree becomes. The experience is what matters once a person has been out of college for a while.

Advanced degrees are often seen as indication that the person is a self-motivator. The initial degree is something that people just have to do, and that the parents push for. But a person then decides on his or her own to go for an advanced degree, and pushes himself or herself through that, which requires a lot of self-motivation.

BTW, I just read an interesting article -- about a Ghost writer who provide his (paid) service to Graduate and even PhD students.

Which is of course illegal. In Europe, a couple of people got busted recently for plagiarizing in their PhD thesis or using a ghostwriter. These people include the (now former) German minister of defense, as well as Gadhafi's son...

[chakrakr]

Originally posted by StressedAbtGC:

Originally posted by chakrakr:

For "normal people" in US, experience is counted over education in most cases. The VP of IT operations in our company is a BA in History, of course with 20 + years of experience . There are tonns of such example.

The Sr.VP of IT in our company is a PhD in computer science, is only 38 years old and has 3 VPs and 6 Directors working for him. He is way ahead of your VP in terms of career progression.

This sure prove that enough Experience CAN substitute Education. And how do you know that he is way ahead of the VP of our company that I cited ??

You seem to be still carrying the mentality of your home country where a degree is considered all important.

This cannot be a serious comment. Education is important. Even in your above example your VP had some degree, didn't he?

Education is important but NOT everything. Experience can and do substitute education in many cases. That is all it is about.

BTW, I just read an interesting article -- about a Ghost writer who provide his (paid) service to Graduate and even PhD students.

What is your point here?

The point here is fake degrees and fake experience is possible everywhere in world not only in 3rd world country (refer post by strynz

and illinoisdude).

I don't know how the discussion has turned into education vs experience.

It turned based on following comments :

"10 years of experience cannot replace MS or PhD degree"

"A 3 year degree in India is not even equivalent to a BS degree in US. The minimum requirement for EB3 is a BS degree" (Which is BTW an incorrect information being spread by a supposedly "educated" person)

They are supposed to be complementary. Education enhances your career prospects and experience helps you progress thru your career. I am not sure what job postings you look at but most companies, when hiring, are willing to let candidates substitute experience for higher degrees and vice versa.

Not sure why you think I disagree to that !

[Illinois_Dude]

Indeed. If you think with your US education , you have become extra ordinary, why do you languish in EB2 (and through bricks at EB 3) .... go for EB 1

I never said I was extraordinary because I have a US education. It is you guys that started quoting Bill Gates etc..And you are throwing bricks at EB2 ..

[roul_raj123]

As I said earlier, all the USA Master degree holders through F1 route, who applies in EB2 category are definitely doing fraud. Everyone knows that F1 visa is not a dual intent visa. So you are not supposed to stay in this country after your study is over. So the best resolution will be to formulate the law to bar all foreign students who enter the country through F1 route to be automatically banned from applying the Green Cards. That will help all the Eb3 communities, who came through H1b route, which is of course a dual intent visa category. If USCIS takes this approach against these F1 students, then EB backlogs will definitely be removed in few years time.

[StressedAbtGC]

Originally posted by roul_raj123:

As I said earlier, all the USA Master degree holders through F1 route, who applies in EB2 category are definitely doing fraud. Everyone knows that F1 visa is not a dual intent visa. So you are not supposed to stay in this country after your study is over. So the best resolution will be to formulate the law to bar all foreign students who enter the country through F1 route to be automatically banned from applying the Green Cards. That will help all the Eb3 communities, who came through H1b route, which is of course a dual intent visa category. If USCIS takes this approach against these F1 students, then EB backlogs will definitely be removed in few years time.

Now you are just spreading hate. Shame on you Sir.

[strynz]

Originally posted by roul_raj123:

As I said earlier, all the USA Master degree holders through F1 route, who applies in EB2 category are definitely doing fraud. Everyone knows that F1 visa is not a dual intent visa. So you are not supposed to stay in this country after your study is over. So the best resolution will be to formulate the law to bar all foreign students who enter the country through F1 route to be automatically banned from applying the Green Cards. That will help all the Eb3 communities, who came through H1b route, which is of course a dual intent visa category. If USCIS takes this approach against these F1 students, then EB backlogs will definitely be removed in few years time.

Alternatively, all entrants based on H1B can be banned and in this way only people who can afford and manage a US education will get in and there will not be any EB3.

[Belle]

"As I said earlier, all the USA Master degree holders through F1 route, who applies in EB2 category are definitely doing fraud. "

What a bunch of boondogle! A student is permitted to change intent 90 days after obtaining F1 status or entering the country. Not even mentioning that the vast majority of those getting advanced degrees first start working on H1, and only then apply for green cards.

Clearly, ignorance combined with anger is not a good recipe for forming a solid opinion.

[roul_raj123]

Wait…..Wait……Wait every one…..

The basic qualification criteria for a Student visa as mentioned in travel.state.gov are as follows:

The Immigration and National Act is very specific with regard to the requirements which must be met by applicants to qualify for the student visa. The consular officer will determine whether you qualify for the visa. Additionally, applicants must demonstrate that they properly meet student visa requirements including:

• Have a residence abroad, with no immediate intention of abandoning that residence;

• Intend to depart from the United States upon completion of the course of study; and

• Possess sufficient funds to pursue the proposed course of study.

No where it says that you have a 90 days grace period to change your intent. So it is better to stick to the basics.

1) At the time you get your first visa, you are specifically asked "What are you going to do when this expires?†to which you reply "I am coming back to my home country". That question is asked to all F1 Applicants during the visa interview.

2) At the time you cross the border into the US using an F-1, you re-affirm your intention to come back when the F-1 business is all done.

As per you people, suddenly after 90 days your intention changes. Wait….I smell something fishy here. The basic truth is that, from the 1st day itself your intention was to stay here permanently, but in order to get the F1 visa you say a complete lie first to the Visa Officer, and then to the POE Officer. That means that you totally misrepresented yourself during the F1 Visa process. And that is a fraud.

If you guys are so confident, and feel that this is not fraud, then why don’t you try to say the truth with boldness to the Visa Officer, that after 90 days I will change my intent, and will apply for my Green Card.?

[pontevecchio]

Maybe foreign degrees based on the pernicious concept of reservations should also be barred from pursuing Immigration. Just a thought.....

[pontevecchio]

Ditto and ad infinitum my previous post.......