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hossaint

Child born to G4 visa holder

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I think they will be a US citizen, but it will be up to you to claim it not. (correct me if I am wrong).

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The child is either a US citizen at birth or not. There is no "claim".

If one parent had full diplomatic immunity at the time the child was born, and the other parent was not a US citizen, the child is not a US citizen at birth, and there is no way to choose or "claim" US citizenship for the child. The parents have the option to register the child as a US permanent resident (green card holder) if the child has lived in the US continuously since birth.

Note that generally only high-level diplomats have full diplomatic immunity; non-diplomatic staff often have a limited form of immunity for official acts; this does not count as full diplomatic immunity and their children born in the US are automatically US citizens. Here is an old edition of a section of the Foreign Affairs Manual that talks about citizenship at birth for children of diplomats. Scroll down to 7 FAM 1116.2–3 (on page 9–10 of the PDF) for the section on representatives to the UN. (Unfortunately, the current version of the Foreign Affairs Manual does not contain comparable information.)

If one parent had full diplomatic immunity but the other parent was a US citizen at the time of the child's birth, whether the child has US citizenship is determined based whether the US citizen parent meets the conditions to transmit US citizenship to a child born abroad.

If neither parent had full diplomatic immunity at the time the child was born, the child is automatically and involuntarily a US citizen at birth.

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Unless the parents are diplomats the child will be a US citizen.

 

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13 hours ago, User099 said:

I think they will be a US citizen, but it will be up to you to claim it not. (correct me if I am wrong).

There is nothing to claim. As per the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution, anybody born in the US under US jurisdiction is a US citizen. Period. The only exception are children of diplomats, because diplomats are not under US jurisdiction.

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4 hours ago, JoeF said:

There is nothing to claim. As per the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution, anybody born in the US under US jurisdiction is a US citizen. Period. The only exception are children of diplomats, because diplomats are not under US jurisdiction.

They are US citizens by birth, but if parents want them to get their citizenship from their home country they can also do that. By "claim" I mean parents get to decide which citizenship they want to accept for their kids. 

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5 hours ago, User099 said:

They are US citizens by birth, but if parents want them to get their citizenship from their home country they can also do that. By "claim" I mean parents get to decide which citizenship they want to accept for their kids. 

 No, the parents  can NOT decide. A child born in the US *is* A US citizen, if the parents like that or not. Period.

Now, India has a weird rule in which they pretend that a child born in the US to Indian parents doesn't have US citizenship if the child doesn't have a US passport. That is factually false. Even without a US passport the child still is a US citizen. This make pretend just gives the Indian authorities a convenient excuse to issue an Indian passport to the child. But if the parents travel with the child abroad the child would not be able to enter the US again until the child gets a US passport. The child, as US citizen, would not be able to get a visa to the US, nor would the child need one.

The bottom line: a child born in the US *is* A US citizen. Nobody in the world can change that or choose. NOT the parents, not some other country.  Period. End of story.

Other countries, even countries that don't allow dual citizenship, handle this sensible and the correct way and may give a child born in the US *additional* citizenships based on their parents' citizenships, as an exception of the general rule.

Edited by JoeF

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9 hours ago, JoeF said:

The bottom line: a child born in the US *is* A US citizen. Nobody in the world can change that or choose. NOT the parents, not some other country.  Period. End of story.

I don't agree with you. May be that is something you believing in and I don't have enough proof to prove you wrong at this time.

 

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1 hour ago, User099 said:

I don't agree with you. May be that is something you believing in and I don't have enough proof to prove you wrong at this time.

 

If you agree or not is irrelevant. Facts are facts are facts.

Everybody born in the US under US jurisdiction is a US citizen, as per the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution. No parent, nor any other country has a say in that. The US Constitution applies. That's all there is to it.

There also is the Supreme Court case  US v. WONG Kim Ark, from 1898. The US tried to deny Mr. WONG US citizenship even though he was born in the US, by claiming as subject to the Emperor of China he wasn't subject to US jurisdiction. There also existed a racist law at that time restricting Chinese immigration. The Supreme Court ruled in his favor. Meaning that as long as the 14th Amendment exists nobody, not even Congress, can override the citizenship clause.

Look it up. It is on Wikipedia.

Edited by JoeF

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20 hours ago, User099 said:

They are US citizens by birth, but if parents want them to get their citizenship from their home country they can also do that. By "claim" I mean parents get to decide which citizenship they want to accept for their kids. 

You are wrong. A child born in the US (not to a diplomat with full diplomatic immunity), or born outside the US to a US citizen parent who meets the conditions to transmit citizenship to a child born abroad, is automatically and involuntarily a US citizen at birth. The US law says "The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth". No action needs to be taken for this to happen, and neither the parent nor child has any "choice" in the matter. The child can renounce citizenship when they are old enough to have the maturity and understanding to voluntarily renounce (usually at least 16).

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14 hours ago, JoeF said:

Now, India has a weird rule in which they pretend that a child born in the US to Indian parents doesn't have US citizenship if the child doesn't have a US passport. That is factually false. Even without a US passport the child still is a US citizen. This make pretend just gives the Indian authorities a convenient excuse to issue an Indian passport to the child.

India doesn't "pretend" the child doesn't have US citizenship. Indian law says that a child born abroad to an Indian citizen parent is an Indian citizen by descent if registered at an Indian consulate within one year of birth with the parents declaring that the child does not hold a foreign passport. It does not depend on whether the child has another citizenship. The same law says that an Indian citizen by descent will cease to be an Indian citizen if they do not renounce their other citizenships with 6 months of full age, so it clearly contemplates that they can have other citizenships before then.

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9 hours ago, JoeF said:

If you agree or not is irrelevant. Facts are facts are facts.

Everybody born in the US under US jurisdiction is a US citizen, as per the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution. No parent, nor any other country has a say in that. The US Constitution applies. That's all there is to it.

There also is the Supreme Court case  US v. WONG Kim Ark, from 1898. The US tried to deny Mr. WONG US citizenship even though he was born in the US, by claiming as subject to the Emperor of China he wasn't subject to US jurisdiction. There also existed a racist law at that time restricting Chinese immigration. The Supreme Court ruled in his favor. Meaning that as long as the 14th Amendment exists nobody, not even Congress, can override the citizenship clause.

Look it up. It is on Wikipedia.

Everyone born in the US is a US citizen. That is a Fact (oops, sorry its a Fact, a fact and a Fact...LOL). No one is arguing that. But there a some other statements that I don't agree with you on. If someone gives up US citizenship and accepts a citizenship of an other country. Then are you saying that they will never be able to enter US again without taking US citizenship again? Maybe you need to do some reading.

https://www.usa.gov/renounce-lose-citizenship#:~:targetText=You will no longer be,country (under certain conditions).

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8 hours ago, newacct said:

You are wrong. A child born in the US (not to a diplomat with full diplomatic immunity), or born outside the US to a US citizen parent who meets the conditions to transmit citizenship to a child born abroad, is automatically and involuntarily a US citizen at birth. The US law says "The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth". No action needs to be taken for this to happen, and neither the parent nor child has any "choice" in the matter. The child can renounce citizenship when they are old enough to have the maturity and understanding to voluntarily renounce (usually at least 16).

 

8 hours ago, newacct said:

India doesn't "pretend" the child doesn't have US citizenship. Indian law says that a child born abroad to an Indian citizen parent is an Indian citizen by descent if registered at an Indian consulate within one year of birth with the parents declaring that the child does not hold a foreign passport. It does not depend on whether the child has another citizenship. The same law says that an Indian citizen by descent will cease to be an Indian citizen if they do not renounce their other citizenships with 6 months of full age, so it clearly contemplates that they can have other citizenships before then.

From both these posts you have proved my point. Again I don't argue the fact that any one born in US is a US Citizen. I am not wrong, but you are not able to understand all the facets of the underlying situation. 

A child both in US to Indian parents can get a Indian passport and will be treated as an Indian Citizen by decent. India doesn't recognize dual citizenship. SO now what is the status of the child till he comes of age? Is he a US citizen or an Indian Citizen?

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3 hours ago, User099 said:

Everyone born in the US is a US citizen. That is a Fact (oops, sorry its a Fact, a fact and a Fact...LOL). No one is arguing that. But there a some other statements that I don't agree with you on. If someone gives up US citizenship and accepts a citizenship of an other country. Then are you saying that they will never be able to enter US again without taking US citizenship again? Maybe you need to do some reading.

https://www.usa.gov/renounce-lose-citizenship#:~:targetText=You will no longer be,country (under certain conditions).

A child can NOT give up US Citizenship. And the parents can't do it for the child, either. That's another one of these pesky facts. It is very obviously you who needs to do some reading and reading comprehension.

Adults of course can give up their US citizenship. But we were talking about children here. So, the fact is and remains that a child born in the US is a US citizen and needs a US passport to enter the US. Period. End of story.

Edited by JoeF

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https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html

"Citizenship is a status that is personal to the U.S. citizen. Therefore parents may not renounce the citizenship of their minor children. Similarly, parents/legal guardians may not renounce the citizenship of individuals who lack sufficient capacity to do so."

Facts. The only thing that matters.

Edited by JoeF

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9 hours ago, newacct said:

India doesn't "pretend" the child doesn't have US citizenship. Indian law says that a child born abroad to an Indian citizen parent is an Indian citizen by descent if registered at an Indian consulate within one year of birth with the parents declaring that the child does not hold a foreign passport. It does not depend on whether the child has another citizenship. The same law says that an Indian citizen by descent will cease to be an Indian citizen if they do not renounce their other citizenships with 6 months of full age, so it clearly contemplates that they can have other citizenships before then.

So, you are saying that India allows dual citizenship in these cases. As far as I know that is against Indian law. Two laws that contradict each other are proof that one of them is make-believe.

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15 hours ago, JoeF said:

So, you are saying that India allows dual citizenship in these cases. As far as I know that is against Indian law. Two laws that contradict each other are proof that one of them is make-believe.

Dual citizenship cannot be "against" any country's law -- it is simply a condition that arises when one country's law says a person is a citizen and another country's law also says the person is a citizen. If a country doesn't want dual citizenship to occur, it is free to make its laws for obtaining citizenship and/or taking away citizenship such that it dual citizenship doesn't occur in those cases. People sometimes oversimplify dual citizenship restrictions and say a country "does not allow dual citizenship", but no country's law actually says that -- rather, you need to look at the country's specific laws to see how it treats each case in which dual citizenship can happen. Some countries have a restriction in one case but not the other. And, as far as I know, in every country on Earth, there are certain situations in which the country's law will grant citizenship to a child at birth even if the child has another citizenship at birth.

Nothing in India's constitution or laws says dual citizenship is "not allowed". Rather, there is a provision in the constitution and Citizenship Act that says an Indian citizen who voluntarily acquires a foreign citizenship automatically loses Indian citizenship. There is a provision in the Citizenship Act that says undertaking to renounce existing citizenship is a qualification of naturalization. But neither of these rules deal with citizenship at birth. Neither the provisions for Indian citizenship "by birth" (birth in India) nor Indian citizenship "by descent" (birth outside India) are conditioned on the child not having another country's citizenship at birth.

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17 hours ago, JoeF said:

A child can NOT give up US Citizenship. And the parents can't do it for the child, either. That's another one of these pesky facts. It is very obviously you who needs to do some reading and reading comprehension.

Adults of course can give up their US citizenship. But we were talking about children here. So, the fact is and remains that a child born in the US is a US citizen and needs a US passport to enter the US. Period. End of story.

Period. End of Story. Its a Fact ...using this will not make every statement you say a fact for everyone else. It is something you believe in and I am not here to change that.

Kid Born in US can get an Indian Passport and will be called an Indian Citizen by descent, we can leave it at that.

 

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3 hours ago, newacct said:

Dual citizenship cannot be "against" any country's law -- it is simply a condition that arises when one country's law says a person is a citizen and another country's law also says the person is a citizen. If a country doesn't want dual citizenship to occur, it is free to make its laws for obtaining citizenship and/or taking away citizenship such that it dual citizenship doesn't occur in those cases. People sometimes oversimplify dual citizenship restrictions and say a country "does not allow dual citizenship", but no country's law actually says that -- rather, you need to look at the country's specific laws to see how it treats each case in which dual citizenship can happen. Some countries have a restriction in one case but not the other. And, as far as I know, in every country on Earth, there are certain situations in which the country's law will grant citizenship to a child at birth even if the child has another citizenship at birth.

Nothing in India's constitution or laws says dual citizenship is "not allowed". Rather, there is a provision in the constitution and Citizenship Act that says an Indian citizen who voluntarily acquires a foreign citizenship automatically loses Indian citizenship. There is a provision in the Citizenship Act that says undertaking to renounce existing citizenship is a qualification of naturalization. But neither of these rules deal with citizenship at birth. Neither the provisions for Indian citizenship "by birth" (birth in India) nor Indian citizenship "by descent" (birth outside India) are conditioned on the child not having another country's citizenship at birth.

Fair enough. However, that still doesn't answer the question why they don't grant citizenship to a child who has another passport, like the US passport. Having a passport is an indication of having that country's citizenship, but even without a US passport the person, when born in the US, is a US citizen. That's where the make-believe kicks in.

I am a dual citizen, US by choice, and my birth country. I have two passports. There is no problem with having multiple passports.

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On 11/27/2019 at 3:59 PM, User099 said:

Period. End of Story. Its a Fact ...using this will not make every statement you say a fact for everyone else. It is something you believe in and I am not here to change that.

Kid Born in US can get an Indian Passport and will be called an Indian Citizen by descent, we can leave it at that.

 

The child will ALSO be a US citizen. For the child to travel to the US, e.g, from vacation abroad, the child will have to present a US passport. The child can, as US citizen, not get a visa to the US, nor does the child need one.

Parents can not give up their child's US citizenship. That's a fact, I quoted it earlier:

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html

That's all there is to it. Facts. Simple as that. You may believe what you want, but the facts are the only things that matter. And I state facts, backed up by the US Constitution and government documents.

Edited by JoeF

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On 11/30/2019 at 5:06 PM, JoeF said:

The child will ALSO be a US citizen. For the child to travel to the US, e.g, from vacation abroad, the child will have to present a US passport. The child can, as US citizen, not get a visa to the US, nor does the child need one.

Parents can not give up their child's US citizenship. That's a fact, I quoted it earlier:

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html

That's all there is to it. Facts. Simple as that. You may believe what you want, but the facts are the only things that matter. And I state facts, backed up by the US Constitution and government documents.

Kid Born in US can get an Indian Passport and will be called an Indian Citizen by descent. I don't think they will reject visa for such kids when India doesn't recognize dual citizenship. If a country recognized dual citizenship, then they might ask for the kid to get a US passport along with the other citizenship which the kid might inherit by parentage. If the parents apply for US passport first, then the kid will not be able to get a Indian passport. If you know of any such cases where they rejected visa for kids born in the US with an "Indian passport", then prove it. I don't want to waste my time here.

You are taking the argument in a complete different directing saying the same thing again and again and again. Even I am saying that parents cannot giving up US citizenship for the kid. They can applying for an Indian passport before applying for a US passport. Once the kid is 18 he can decide which citizenship he wants to keep and which one to renounce, especially when it comes to kids born to Indian parents. 

Now if you still want to prove that the parents cannot give up US citizenship for US born kids then I can't help you. 

 

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11 hours ago, User099 said:

Kid Born in US can get an Indian Passport and will be called an Indian Citizen by descent. I don't think they will reject visa for such kids when India doesn't recognize dual citizenship. If a country recognized dual citizenship, then they might ask for the kid to get a US passport along with the other citizenship which the kid might inherit by parentage. If the parents apply for US passport first, then the kid will not be able to get a Indian passport. If you know of any such cases where they rejected visa for kids born in the US with an "Indian passport", then prove it. I don't want to waste my time here.

You are taking the argument in a complete different directing saying the same thing again and again and again. Even I am saying that parents cannot giving up US citizenship for the kid. They can applying for an Indian passport before applying for a US passport. Once the kid is 18 he can decide which citizenship he wants to keep and which one to renounce, especially when it comes to kids born to Indian parents. 

Now if you still want to prove that the parents cannot give up US citizenship for US born kids then I can't help you. 

 

It is a FACT that a US citizen can NOT get a US visa. A US citizen absolutely needs a US passport to enter the US. Geez.

This is common sense. It is also spelled out on US government websites. 

It is NOT possible for a US citizen to get a US visa. Period. End of story.

Ask yourself: can an Indian citizen get a visa to enter India??? Does such a person need a visa to enter India??? 

And I have given you the LINK to the US State Department website that clearly says parents can NOT give up US Citizenship for their minor children. What part of that don't you understand???

 

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